Power Supply Basic Facts.

[Zka17]

"One does not have to be wrong for the next to be right. Thats how the third comes up with the correct answer." - man, i love this! May I quote you sometimes?

"Arguing is prohibited."??!! - What do you mean by this? Why it would be prohibited?! It's the only way to have a civilized, constructive and fun conversation...

"Personal Member Attacks - Prohibited" - 100% agree! Who was attacking who here? We are just discussing/arguing...

[chrsplmr]

Hey bro ... Of course yes to the quote .. i have extras ..

The rest has been established in this thread as moot.
Continue. If I was wrong. I got over it...

I take nothing personal except the friendship...

[[[[[ 1st ... I see the gentlemans position and understand why he believes this..
2nd....I have always believed in this position as I understand it.
3rd.....then are we to conclude that somewhere in the middle
possibly is the truth? ]]]] everytime.

... I must of misunderstood myself .. please .. carry on

[DaemonCantor]

Well with all of this to the side. the fact that the systems require more power to operate correctly has been established in my humble opinion and then I started on the last point of endurance of the Power System and to that now I will point out some major facts of how to get more than 20mins of power. It has to do with the 50% to 70% efficiency thing which is that yes the PSU is more effective at 70% than at any other level but also will last longer due to Capacitor Loading. If you look at some of the better PSU calculators the ask about Load Rating, like: http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com/, now Thermaltake suggest 90% because it will burnout faster and you'll end up buying a new one with in a year but if you adjust it down to 70% then it will take 2 to 3 years for those BIG Capacitors to burn up. and what they do is stabilize the current passing through the Primary Stage as well as stop a bad back feed that could damage any and all equipment connected. A Switching PSU works in two to three stages, Primary that converts 120v 60hrz or what ever comes out of the wall in Europe to 35v DC through a Transformer with Filter Capacitors(the BIG ones) to stage Two which then breaks it into 3v, 5v, and 12v through Voltage Regulators(2 to 3 Depending on type) these are also called RAILS but not the RAILS your thinking of yet. Also in Stage two is filtering array of Capacitors. Rail 1 is your 3v line which is what the Second Voltage Regulator provides and is separate from the end Output RAILS and also requires more regulation. Next is Rail 2 which is your 12v Rail and it's what is divided into your 5v Rail as well through a simple Transistor Pair with Capacitor Filtering again. This rail is what most PSU use whether Single or Multiple RAIL. Next is you Rail 3 or Auxiliary Rail and that is present for additional Over Current power. Now on some of the more Expensive PSU's they have a third Stage which is the PWM Circuit and basically what this does is monitor the Output and adjust the Second and Third Rails as needed also in these more expensive PSU's are better Filtering, MOV's for Surge Protection, Better Fan and Temperature Control, More Voltage Regulators for additional Amperage as well as better components. This also doesn't constitute that more cost is better because some of the middle priced PSU's are really better than the Most expensive but it does say that the more power in the rating the better and longer it's going to last you.

There is a site that really goes into depth on the subject to the point that they tear the PSU's apart and examine the components and they are at: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/. They not only examine PSU but all kinds of other parts as well heck they even have a review on Thermal Paste where they have even tried Lipstick and found that it works pretty good but Chocolate didn't work at all...Go look I've got time and there is a wealth of Info there ripe for the picking.

[XZEMi]

In my opinion the best power supply i've ever used to date is quite plain. Its the Antec EA650. Compared to Corsair and Seasonic this power supply remained cool to the touch under all loads. It was perfect for my mini atx case because its fan constantly evacuated heat from the case. I regret my switching it out for a more touted gold rated modular power supply. The new one would leave its fan off until it reached a certain temperature which caused the system to run warm overall. Now the Antec EA650 has nearly doubled in price. On the flip side of things I sold mine used on ebay for the price I paid new.

[Zka17]

DaemonCantor, it's interesting that you linked the Thermaltake's psu calculator, I was looking for it while we were discussing here (I knew that it's from a big company, just could not remember which one) I used that every time when i was building a new system and tried to decide on the psu.

Now, it would be interesting to put those parameters you gave us (AMD Dozer X6, HD 5870, etc) and see what wattage would result... Just to see how it fits to XZEMi's original 850W suggestion...

[Zka17]

XZEMi, based on "Compared to Corsair and Seasonic this power supply remained cool to the touch under all loads. It was perfect for my mini atx case because its fan constantly evacuated heat from the case." - let me guess: your mini atx case was one with a top-mounted psu. Otherwise I could not understand how any psu can get hot to the touch...

With the top-mounted psus which draw air from inside the case is one major problem: they are sucking in the naturally rising hot air produced by cpu, vrm, north bridge, graphic cards, etc. That is the reason why most of the manufacturers switched by now to bottom-mounted psu designs. If the psu is placed on the bottom, it means that is supplied with the coolest air we can find in a tower case - this in case if the psu sucks air from inside. But, most manufacturers today went even further and they are designing their cases with separate thermal zones - the psu draws air from outside (through bottom vent hole often equipped with filter) and exhausts outside. This way the psu is in the coolest place and won't contribute anyhow to the system's overall temperatures.

In conclusion, when designing a new built, it is very important to clarify the placement of the psu - and choose your psu accordingly.

[DaemonCantor]

Very True, in the old days when components supposedly didn't get as warn as they do now the PSU was mounted in the top so that the thing could stay warm enough to work. Have you ever looked at Thermal Diagrams for electronic Components, They show not only what temps the Item is working at when it blows but also what temps it works the best at and how much Ambient Air Temp changes the performance. I'm not telling everyone to become Electronic Engineers but just like most things a little info and knowledge will take you far. Back on track, Yes temperature is important to a point. and you have to take into effect Temp from the Components, Ambient Air Temp and also Load Temp all three of these make up what you feel. I've see components that were so hot that they would burn you but the core temps were with in normal ranges and there was no problem at all. It really all comes down to is don't Assume it's too hot. Most equipment today are created for the 45c to 70c ranges which do the conversion if your American 113f to 158f ...Sorry but that's as hot as Phoenix, AZ on a July 4th Holiday! and I've had some systems that ran Normal but scary as hell at 90c+ 194f that's just below Boiling Water and if you think that's hot then why is a Kray CPU submerged in Liquid? because the things normal Core Temp is 165c or 329f.

So if you think that PSU is too hot to the touch but it's Cooling Apparatus isn't running, then it's not too hot yet but yes it maybe too hot for the other components. Work on a better Thermal Environment first. IE better fan placement, better airflow, less obstructions in the cooling loop and proper Case Pressurization are all ways to not only keep equipment running longer but also needed to keep proper TEMPERATURES for Optimal efficiency of your equipment.

Zka17 I used that Calculator last night and it told me I needed a 980watt PSU for my system but you only need a 700watt for a Core i7 9360???? Same everything else Go Figure!

[Zka17]

"So if you think that PSU is too hot to the touch but it's Cooling Apparatus isn't running, then it's not too hot yet but yes it maybe too hot for the other components. Work on a better Thermal Environment first. IE better fan placement, better airflow, less obstructions in the cooling loop and proper Case Pressurization are all ways to not only keep equipment running longer but also needed to keep proper TEMPERATURES for Optimal efficiency of your equipment." - 100% agree! Maybe we should discuss how these above things can be acquired...

DaemonCantor, I'm sending a PM to you regarding further questions with the psu calculator - we may get to deep in this subject here, maybe others would discuss different things too...

Update: Forget something...

Also, I think, it's time to clarify one more thing! It is important to note what wattage we are posting here. I mean, some people are posting values from a psu calculator, others may share values given real time by a dedicated device - it may not be the same!!!

Just an example: my system's (mentioned on post #4) calculated wattage is 590W while I'm measuring peak values of about 450W - showed by the ups's built in system. Now, which is true?!

[DaemonCantor]

Ok in the PM you requested this and I just finish going back and doing Screen Captures.
Attachment 8205Attachment 8206Attachment 8207

Wow!, Holy Sh1t, Unbelievable! But true!

[Zka17]

OK, then here is my calculation mentioned in my previous post:

Attachment 8208

I know that these two are different systems, but there is just a slight difference between the cpus - 8W. Got curious from where is this big difference (again, I realized the two different systems - but still...). I replaced the graphic card - went up from 590W to 600W. Still doesn't match... Then i observed the 10 USB devices and 2 FireWire ones - recommendation went up to 641W (however, you should have mentioned this - who is doing stress-testing with so many things attached?!). Would be the Intel vs AMD - let's see: still 641W... And there is the front bay card reader - 651W... OK, I'm getting lost - will start over!

Man, this is odd! What I'm missing?! - tried to put your system's parameters, but getting different result...

Attachment 8209