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Myk SilentShadow
08-18-2013, 05:07 PM
http://www.amdoverclock.net/windows-8-benchmark-records-no-longer-accepted-at-hwbot-rtc-clock-bug-in-windows-8/

Read the article :)

Menthol
08-18-2013, 05:40 PM
Crazy, I had no idea that could be done

Dartmaul
08-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Lol that is EPIC!

PS I'm Sorry Menthol I know you're benching on Win8 for some time already. Sad to hear.

Menthol
08-18-2013, 06:15 PM
Hehe Dart, the thing is I'm not smart enough to figure that out, I am going to check everyone's scores in the Challenges now, if they were using the RTC time warp hack I'm going to un-friend them on Facebook that will teach them

Detleg
08-18-2013, 08:27 PM
Yeah i just read that on Facebook, i was stunned, I wonder if we gonna do the same with future competition like the Sizzler, RB and others.... That reminds me hey HiViz i want a recount lol

Rockford
08-18-2013, 08:36 PM
I can understand the staff, but still i think its sad for people that have running Win8 for a long time, and made many submissions, and late nights..

But they also say> That all win8 wont be removed, only the ones that seem "out of order" = top ranks/reported?

not easy to draw the line, i suspect..

Rockford
08-18-2013, 08:45 PM
Thanks for sharing Myk..

Dartmaul
08-18-2013, 08:56 PM
Actually all that stuff doesn't looks good at all. Win8 is now a must for some modern 3D benchmarks. If you can't use it to score some records, is there any sense to use it at all?

I newer used this OS cuz i don't like it, so it doesn't affects me, but what's the final conclusion about this issue for folks?


I'm going to un-friend them on Facebook
Newer had any social network account. Does it really sounds like a serious act?

Detleg
08-19-2013, 12:22 AM
LMAO, Dart if you are Drama free...stay of Facebook :)

Detleg
08-19-2013, 12:25 AM
I'm also with Dart on this...I don't like it either, but was going to strip down the 8.1 and give it a shot.

Rockford
08-19-2013, 12:33 AM
But seriously..

how the hell are they going to do in the future, people run Win8, thats a fact..

the hardcore benchers might adapt to win7, maybe or maybe not. But still the majority of the benchers, are enthusiast, running their 24/7 computers, and also benchmark with it, just for the fun of it..
And i dont think they will pay another 100 usd, for a new win7 OEM, and reinstall everything all over again..

id say its impossible to ban win8, maybe right now, but it wont work in the long run..

staff is going to lose cash, if they exclude Win8

But something need to be done aright, but this seem like a "fast" way out, for now..

Rockford
08-19-2013, 12:47 AM
Especially now when they how showed how to cheat!!!

Menthol
08-19-2013, 01:12 AM
Actually all that stuff doesn't looks good at all. Win8 is now a must for some modern 3D benchmarks. If you can't use it to score some records, is there any sense to use it at all?

I newer used this OS cuz i don't like it, so it doesn't affects me, but what's the final conclusion about this issue for folks?


Newer had any social network account. Does it really sounds like a serious act?

Was teasing about Facebook, I don't like Win 8, purchased it on the $49.00 upgrade so I could learn how to use it, and the only thing I use it for is 3DMARK and had no idea this could be done but apparently some people dis know and know we all do. I don't see it affecting me in any way

HiVizMan
08-19-2013, 03:05 PM
LOL this has all happened before and is not really that big a deal.

I knew about this from day one and even told someone here on the forum how to use Win8 for better scores in other benchmarks. And no none of the results on my challenges have been impacted. ROG realbench scores is another topic all together. Go have a look at my scores, and when i stopped posting scores and you will see a pattern.

Win8 and the cheats who have used the OS. ER NO... None of the folks who used this exploit are cheats, and no none of the folks who have benched Win8 are cheats or where trying to cheat. It is only illegal or becomes a cheat once it is banned guys so do not get all full of piss and vinegar about submissions that were made before the law change. Heaps of tweaks that we take for granted today were illegal when they first came to the mainstream benching community's attention. The closed club that is the top guys had been using some of those exloits for ages. There was a period of "bad people who use these cheats" and then a month later they are all acceptable tweaks and every one who wanted to be competitive was using them.

So let the folks sort this mess out with a wrapper or with some other fix and just get on with enjoying your benching because if you bench just to submit to hwbot and the points then you should not be benching. :)


We bench because it is a challenge to see how good I am at getting the most out of my hardware at a set frequency and is fun, we do not bench for points. The points are just a added value not the reason.

Dartmaul
08-19-2013, 04:06 PM
I'm also with Dart on this...I don't like it either, but was going to strip down the 8.1 and give it a shot.
I've tried every single Win8 version, since the 1st dev preview.
Last one Win8.1 or blue or how doest it called, has killed my win7 bootloader.

BTW, for now I have MS Surface pro tablet PC to play with. A perfect device to use Win8 according to Win8's creators opinion.
And you know, Win8 sucks on Surface as much as on every other device.

It really feels like guys who made it were thinking like: "Well, we've done some good improvement on Win7 kernel and services, it could be a very good OS after all! Let's ruin it with GUI!"

PS http://cheezburger.com/6153325312

Zka17
08-20-2013, 01:16 PM
LOL, big hype on nothing... just make it legal and let people decide if they want to us it or not...

I haven't tried Win8 yet, I don't care about it now - but I will kick their *** with Win7 anyway! :D :D :D

Arne Saknussemm
08-20-2013, 01:34 PM
LOL this has all happened before and is not really that big a deal.

My gut reaction to this was "cheating" but I do see your point...and really you're right I guess it's all grist to the mill and we can all do it now and there is some kudos to putting in the hours to find this stuff or try this stuff based on pretty deep knowledge.

I just remember breaking RealBench though and enjoying doing it!!! but not sitting on the discovery and entering scores as real but writing off to Nodens and disclosing straight away (well almost straight away LOL :o).

I do feel there is a line in there somewhere but acknowledge it is very hard to draw it. But I approach this from the fun angle maybe the competitive aspect is where things get murky...

I just can't help think HWBOT should put up the tweak...ask have you used it/should we all use it and people should put their hands up if they have..

HiVizMan
08-20-2013, 01:49 PM
This is the tweak.

Boot into OS at the frequency you wish to bench at. Then using software down-clock your BCLK run the benchmark. Your score is quicker than if you had run it at the boot frequency it is something that has been used and done since way way back. It is not new or unique it is just what it is.

Not all benchmarks respond some do some don't. Not all OS work this way some do some don't.

Dartmaul
08-20-2013, 08:47 PM
LOL, big hype on nothing... just make it legal and let people decide if they want to us it or not...
If you make it legal - it would force everyone to use it.
Doesn't looks good for me.

Zka17
08-20-2013, 10:04 PM
If you make it legal - it would force everyone to use it.

+1 for that! If it's legal, soon or later everyone will use it - who wants competitive scores of course...

Dartmaul
08-21-2013, 08:57 AM
If you would remove any restrictions, overclocking would loose it's sense.
Guys wouldn't mess around real tweaks and would use bugs, hacks and cheats instead.
Something that would affect not the real performance of the test but score measurement.

Why to spend hours to get one good result if you can run all benchmarks withing one hour and add some good score in photoshop?

When your place on HWBot standing becomes more important than how did you reached it - it's a place to stop. (IMO)


Zoltan, I know you're aiming ant top1 in the league, we all do in some meaning.
Cheat - its not something that is restricted, it's something that is against the basic sense and idea of overclocking.

Zka17
08-21-2013, 12:21 PM
Well, pretty much all tweakings were a "cheat" at the beginning... just think about turning off Tessellation on AMD cards or playing around with LOD bias... - those were "cheats" too, until they make them legal...

Now about this: "Something that would affect not the real performance of the test but score measurement." - there I can see a problem... but, again, if it's available to everyone, it everyone can use it, why would be a cheat?

"Cheat - its not something that is restricted, it's something that is against the basic sense and idea of overclocking." - I agree! However, I would be curious of a description of the "basic sense and idea of overclocking"... also, is there a difference in the "basic sense and idea of overclocking" and "benchmarking"? Just curious about opinions...

Arne Saknussemm
08-21-2013, 01:10 PM
Well for me, you have to draw a line somewhere and the "everyone can use it" rationale is dodgy ground...like drugs in the Olympics....why not just let everyone take all the drugs they like and compete that way.....hope we can all see why that is not a good idea.

Son: "Got track and field today dad!"
Dad: "Oh yeah, have you remembered to shoot up your anabolic steroids before breakfast? You'll never make the county team unless you do!"

I am with Dart I think the basic sense and idea is what HiViz has managed to foster here, the learning about your system...how it works from software to hardware....the more you know the better an idea you'll have to find the perfect conditions for running a benchmark....finding the sweetspot in an interplay of multiple physical and electronic parts...playing with temps modifying voltage etc etc.
I can see where driver tweaks come in....fair play to those that discover them...you have to know what a driver does what it effects all these things are giving understanding and for me have merit as discoveries and tweaks. I also like the Frankenstein cards...if you have the electronics knowledge to turn your vanilla GPU into a FTL drive..more credit to you.

But doing things like cheating your clock....that's pointless. If the benchmark scores are defined by time run we all have to be using the same time...that's cheating...not tweaking.

If I'm not mistaken I have the highest RealBench score ever.....I resized pictures and deleted the video....do I go top of the table again? :p

HiVizMan
08-21-2013, 03:28 PM
Well said Arne :)

Zka17
08-21-2013, 06:21 PM
Forgive me to push this subject more, but I'm really interested... - if you want me to stop pushing, let me know and will do right away!

So, the "basic sense of overclocking" for me is when you're pushing your hardware - absolutely no software tweaks (OS, drivers, etc) are involved in the OC'ing process... obviously, software is involved with the graphics clocking... In this part there is no "cheating" possibility, cooling will tell you where are your limits...

Now, "benchmarking" is a totally different thing - there we're chasing scores... From the point when we modified the driver (ex: tessellation off, LOD, etc) or the OS (diagnostic mode, realtime, reduced screen resolution, etc) it's not about pure "overclocking" anymore... and that's fine:

"benchmarking" = "overclocking" + "SOMETHING"

Now, for HWBOT we have rules both for "overclocking" (cooling for example in Enthusiast League) and that "SOMETHING" (includes all driver and OS tweaks). Those rules, however are arbitrary, they're meant to keep fairness in that big HWBOT competition... the main role, I think, of the rules is to keep some stable, set conditions to be able to compare different hardware setups... "cheating" on HWBOT (and since this Win8 mess came from there, let's just limit our definition to that) is meaning breaking those set rules... which are arbitrary to keep some similar conditions... - so, my point is that if Win8's RTC is allowed to everyone, it would be part of the "set conditions", so they wouldn't be cheats anymore...

So, based on the above, I don't think that "benchmarking" and submitting scores on HWBOT has anything to do with the "common sense of overclocking"... on HWBOT the "common sense" is defined by rules and it's about achieving higher and higher scores... - again, i'm talking about HWBOT! If you don't like this, don't agree with this, then there is really no point to submit on HWBOT...

The question about how many tweaks (OS and driver) should be allowed, which of them should be legal and which of them should be considered illegal, is definitely a hard question - because it has to reflect an agreement among a lot of people. For the beginning, let's just clarify that those HWBOT scores have nothing to do with the real life experience with a certain system! So, the whole thing is just a hobby... an artificially created environment (by rules) for some fun... As such, the real goal is really to get the highest scores possible... - and i'm absolutely sure that the highest scores can be achieved only when everything is OC'd at max (of course in limits of stability) and all the tweaks in OS and drivers are applied...

HiVizMan
08-21-2013, 09:15 PM
Overclocking is not benching. Overclocking is simply changing the state of any hardware so that is is operating above the default specifications. It is for that reason folks are OCing when they change the frequency on their memories from the default to what ever the spec might be on the sticks of memory.

Benching as we use the term uses overclocked, or not, systems and optimises the environment that the benchmarks are run to achieve as best a score as is possible to that particular users skill set. OC is a single tool out of many, it is not the only tool. Well it should not be. You can be a great OC er but a rubbish tweaker of benchmarks. There are many of those in the leagues. The best of the best need to be both good OCers and good benchers.

Specifically the Win8 debate here. Zka there is a difference between optimising a driver and changing how the system clock works. The system clock has been the target for those who wish an unfair advantage over others for years. The way folks have tried to exploit these is as diverse as the folks who compete. From registry hacks to changing the timing crystal used in a motherboard. You name it and it has been tried - and found out. The Win8 issue is not something that should just be opened up to all. Just as midmap hacks are not allowed but LOD are they do different stuff at different level of abstraction. The Win8 exploit does not make your system more efficient the benchmark does not run any faster, all that happens is the outcome is misrepresented. So 11 secs now is represented as 9.7 secs. The system did not actually complete the benchmark in the time that is posted.

Do you see the distinction between a legal tweak and an exploit? A tweak makes the system perform the benchmark more efficiently to achieve a score that is higher, quicker, more efficient - call it what ever you like. An exploit returns a result that was not more efficient or quicker yet still has a higher score or a lower time of completion. One improves efficiently the other exploits a weakness.

Zka17
08-22-2013, 12:03 AM
Thank you, Sir, for sharing your thoughts!

I'm happy and kinda proud that I'm seeing the overclcoking and benchmarking as you do. Maybe I learned it from you? :)

Regarding the "legal tweak" and "exploit"... Yes, i'm completely aware the issues about this clock mismatch thing... and I agree with your point - when it's about "efficiency"... however, my question is if the results we submit on HWBOT are really about "efficiency"? or more about "highest score"?

I see in your Challenges that there the main point is the "efficiency" - and that is good, because that is the best way for us to learn every - allowable/legal - tweak. Now, for the "highest scores" on HWBOT we do need everything...

You said that every tweak actually had been known before and even used for top scores... Now, my point is that those top scores are used not only for fame on HWBOT, but by manufacturers for advertising. And that's where the un-fairness gets in my picture! Those world records are set with serious modification of the hardware and similar tweak in software like this Win8 RTC thing is... and those modifications and tweaks are highly unknown by regular benchers - so, there is not equal chance for everybody... and that's what I call "cheating"...

My idea to make these tweaks known to everybody, make the those hardware mods public and these kind of tweakings available to everyone, would make the "cheat" to disappear... everybody would start from the same place, so benchmarking would be a real fair game...

(Before somebody would mention the financial part of things, that is something what everyone has to deal with... the truth is that if you want to play at high level, you have to invest... - there is no sport in this world where it would be different... even chess, if you want to compete at very high levels, is very very expensive...)

Dartmaul
08-22-2013, 11:14 AM
Z
Just yesterday, there was a discussion in conv about 3D03 scores. If i remember correct, sometimes you had gained some incredibly high scores those were considered as "bugged".
But for sure you didn't forced that bug to appear. So there's a question: can these scores be valid or not.

is there a difference in the "basic sense and idea of overclocking" and "benchmarking"?
As HiViz showed us recently, I'm not experienced enough to figure out a vital difference between these two terms. So in this certain case overclocking = benchmarking. Off course these terms aren't equal.

I'd like to figure out what exactly I meant saying "basic sense of overclocking":
IMO the key word is optimization. When you use wazza for SuperPi you optimize whole system's mem usage. When you let process affinity and priority you optimize system powers for certain task.
That is obvious and you're gonna ask "And how about LOD, tesselation etc etc etc??" These things are affecting initial algorithm oh the benchmark. If tesselation is enabled in stock preset and you force disable it, practically, you use different setting those cannot be compared with other results made with this preset. If you remember, when I first faced that fact during our December challenge I also was considering it as a cheat. But since tesselation mode was widely known tweak and was allowed to use for HWbot submissions and "widely accepted by folks" I just accepted that norm as a rule. LOD is something different. It does changes picture quality but doesn't gives score gain in every benchmark. Also LOD has a wide range of values you have to adjust for every benchmark or even every test (3D01). That is something I can actually call "tweaking".

So the basic sense of overclocking(aka benchmarking) is to adjust, optimize your system to increase actual performance in some certain task.

In that logic; certain task is a unchangeable amount of calculations, static value.
So everything that allows you to perform these calculations faster - is valid tweak.
Everything that changes the amount of calculations required or affect score without affecting real calculation speed (performance) - isn't.


Absolutely agreed with Arne. Nothing to add just +1.

HiVizMan
08-22-2013, 11:32 AM
I do not recall ever suggesting that HWBOT is fair or that all results are legit that appear on the leader boards. Do not confuse benching with HWBOT they are not the same, the one is the act of getting the best our of your system using OC and tweaking to achieve that. The other is a commercial enterprise that needs to generate income to remain viable, this enterprise is a repository for those few benchmarks that they have selected. It has no validity beyond being the only game in town. Some of the greatest benchers in the world do not submit scores to HWBOT. The legendary Japanese 2D benchers for example do not recognise HWBOT, or at least they do not belong to it.

Manufactures do of course use results from benchmarks to sell product. Are those results in any way reflective of the actual day to day product, hell no. Is it right that marketers do that? In my view no it is not. Will it change, not likely any time soon. Folks are too caught up in the hype - the car that will do 240mph even though the speed limit is 80mph for example. HWBOT needs to have results posted or they have nothing to sell. They need extreme results as those are the wow factor results, the results that vendors can and do use to sell stuff. They are not going to piss on the producer of all those extreme results that manufactures want to see. That would be a bad business model. Oh sure if a person is careless or tries to take the piss then they will have to jump in, but trust me it takes a whole heap of doing to get a top 10 bencher banned. Think Animal Farm Zka, some pigs are more equal than others. Think every day society, one set of rules for all at least in theory but you and I both know that is not the case. Which leads me to my next point.

Fair or fairness, oh dear - those concepts have no place in the world in my view. There is no fairness anywhere Zka. But lets leave that metaphysical discussion for a cup of coffee and a chat some other time ok.

Here is the thing, back to benching, the 30K or so benchers have no right to know all the tweaks that there are. Why should I or any other who has taken the time to read up the white papers behind each benchmark, taken the time to do hours and hours of testing different OS functions have to part with that knowledge just to level the playing field? Really? I think not. If the bencher is smart enough, hard working enough and willing to try things then s/he will find out stuff. Knowledge is currency Zka. It is the competitive edge, that difference between the leaders and the pack. The top guys trade information, because they have something to trade. They trade each bit of information so very carefully between them as there is only so much pie to go around and you want to keep your enemies close. A closed shop I guess you could call it.

Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh or cynical but this is the real benching world.

Menthol
08-22-2013, 03:10 PM
Integrity, something that takes a long time to gain but can be lost in a second. it's a decision each of us have to make.
I have to admit it feels good to submit a high score on hwbot, but it has been much more fun for me competing in the Challenges you have put on for us Dagmar, life is more about friendships you make and experiences you have than a number you submit, I need to remind myself of that from time to time

HiVizMan
08-22-2013, 03:38 PM
Yeah you are not alone in having to do the remind thing Menthol. Especially when we are in a team situation it is all to easy to forget why we actually bench, you said it well, and the competitive nature of team comes to the fore. I have seen folks do terrible things, to themselves by photoshopping or some other cheat, or to those that love them but over spending on hardware or not spending time with family. It is so easy to get drawn in and lose focus on what is really important. It is just a hobby, we bench because it is fun, we bench with our friends here on ROG because we are a kind of family. Dysfunctional as f ck can be, but then so are pretty much all families in my experience once you get beneath the surface. LOL

flexnl
08-25-2013, 10:06 PM
Dysfunctional as f ck

LOL dagmar.. That we are! and wouldnt have it any other way :)

Rockford
08-25-2013, 11:45 PM
http://youtu.be/Nz9BNwbKM0M

HiVizMan
08-27-2013, 12:55 PM
Paw all we need is the fire now and we can all join in and sing the chorus. :D