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dhess83
09-18-2014, 01:14 AM
Today I upgraded my RoG G75VL to a shiny new G750JM.

The first thing I do whenever I buy a RoG notebook is to take that mechanical hard drive out, because why would I want an elite gamer's computer relying on a 5400RPM HDD. That's like buying a Ferrari and driving it around with spare tires.

Anyway, took my SSD out of my G75VL and put it into my G750JM. Here are the Windows Experience Indexes compared.

Please look at the "Primary hard disk data transfer rate" in both pictures.

Old computer:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66272/G75VL.PNG

New computer:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66272/G750JM.PNG

Now, I know that the Windows Experience Index is not a good benchmark. However, I have the same SSD. I moved the SSD from the old laptop to the new one. Why is my HDD score 7.9 on the old laptop and 6.8 on the new one?

I have AHCI enabled, all drivers installed, SSD optimization done... I can think of no conceivable reason that my score would be lower unless somehow the SATA bus is slower.

Does anybody have any suggestions! I'm frustrated that on my brand new notebook my scores have gone DOWN... on the same piece of hardware!

hmscott
09-18-2014, 03:48 AM
Today I upgraded my RoG G75VL to a shiny new G750JM.

The first thing I do whenever I buy a RoG notebook is to take that mechanical hard drive out, because why would I want an elite gamer's computer relying on a 5400RPM HDD. That's like buying a Ferrari and driving it around with spare tires.

Anyway, took my SSD out of my G75VL and put it into my G750JM. Here are the Windows Experience Indexes compared.

Please look at the "Primary hard disk data transfer rate" in both pictures.

Old computer:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66272/G75VL.PNG

New computer:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66272/G750JM.PNG

Now, I know that the Windows Experience Index is not a good benchmark. However, I have the same SSD. I moved the SSD from the old laptop to the new one. Why is my HDD score 7.9 on the old laptop and 6.8 on the new one?

I have AHCI enabled, all drivers installed, SSD optimization done... I can think of no conceivable reason that my score would be lower unless somehow the SATA bus is slower.

Does anybody have any suggestions! I'm frustrated that on my brand new notebook my scores have gone DOWN... on the same piece of hardware!

dhess83, you booted your G750JM from your OS install that was done on the G75VL ? Or did you clone your JM HDD to the old SSD and boot on the OS install designed and built for and on the JM?

Even if it booted on the OS install made on the G75VL, it isn't tuned for the new JM hardware :)

I wouldn't recommend trying to fix it, I would put the drive back in the G75VL, clone that install to another disk in the G75VL - maybe it's original HDD, and then put that SSD into the JM 2nd Bay and clone the install on the JM HDD to the SSD - blowing away all the partitions on the SSD first.

Even better, put the JM HDD back in, boot on it, get a 16GB USB 3.0 flash drive and create a recovery flash drive using Asus Backtracker - that is how you get a recovery resource these days - Asus no longer ships recovery DVD's - you get a recovery partition on the disk and you need to create a bootable Flash drive using Asus Backtracker - it doesn't make bootable DVD's, sorry.

Then you would put the SSD in alone in the boot Bay (the one the HDD came in), and boot on the flash drive - hit ESC from a cold power on until you get the boot menu, select your USB flash recovery drive, boot and follow the instructions to restore to the SSD. The recovery program blows away everything it finds in the 2 drive bays, so be sure and pull the drive out of the 2nd drive bay before doing the restore.

Here is what I use for cloning, if you want to go that route:

Macrium Reflect Free
http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

I have done both methods -cloning when I have a bunch of installs / configs I want to preserve, recovery restore if you have a fresh out of the box install on the HDD in the JM, it is quicker to create the flash drive and do the restore from that.

If you want to try to "update" the install on the G75VL built SSD, I would clone it to a new SSD and work on that rather than the original - you may need a couple of attempts to figure out all that needs to be updated - and by updating I mean blowing away the old drivers and putting in new ones for all the hardware that is different between the G75VL and the JM - starting with motherboard chipset driver:)

I don't think I would try it these days, but I have done it many times before, and my success rate is about 80% with Windows.

You might want to boot on the JM original HDD first, before restoring to the SSD, and use a program like AIDA64 Engineer or HWinfo64, or? to figure out which Bay SATA interface is the fastest. They might both be SATA III, but in the old series some had a SATA II interface in one of the Bays - you might as well check ahead of time. It doesn't make as much difference with an HDD, but SSD will be affected. :)

Let us know what you end up doing, and how it works out for you :)

dhess83
09-18-2014, 04:07 AM
dhess83, you booted your G750JM from your OS install that was done on the G75VL

Originally I did boot my old laptops SSD without any modifications. After it successfully booted into Win7 for the first time I installed all of the new drivers, and then I posted my scores.


Even if it booted on the OS install made on the G75VL, it isn't tuned for the new JM hardware

I came to that conclusion, so I installed a completely fresh copy of Win7 on my SSD. Then I used the instructions at http://forum.maxgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=161 to being working on a fresh, shiny, clean, "perfect" install.

Sadly, the Windows Experience scores are the same. SSD maxes out at 6.8, the same score I had before formatting. I have no idea why. I have tried the SSD in both bays. I have also updated my BIOS, and ran the Samsung magician that came with my SSD.

Thanks for your reply, I can tell you're really trying to help!

hmscott
09-18-2014, 04:27 AM
Originally I did boot my old laptops SSD without any modifications. After it successfully booted into Win7 for the first time I installed all of the new drivers, and then I posted my scores.

I came to that conclusion, so I installed a completely fresh copy of Win7 on my SSD. Then I used the instructions at http://forum.maxgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=161 to being working on a fresh, shiny, clean, "perfect" install.

Sadly, the Windows Experience scores are the same. SSD maxes out at 6.8, the same score I had before formatting. I have no idea why. I have tried the SSD in both bays. I have also updated my BIOS, and ran the Samsung magician that came with my SSD.

Thanks for your reply, I can tell you're really trying to help!

dhess83, the other thing to do would be to use a better tool for measuring throughput, something simple like CrystalDiskMark should be enough.

Run it on both the G75VL and the JM :)

The score is so close as to make me wonder if it is a matter of Windows 7 driver support for the new hardware - designed, created, and built after Windows 7 was near Retail EOS, might be the issue.

Windows lifecycle fact sheet
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

41258

A better test might be to use Windows 7 on the G75VL and Windows 8.1 on the JM. Or Windows 8.1 on both. I am suggesting you use the best tuned OS/drivers for the hardware.

You do know that you don't have full GPU fan function on Windows 7? You need to be able to enable Full Fan using the Asus Tweak Tool for Laptops - and there is no functioning Windows 7 version.

I would use the questionable result you found more as a debugging indication, as justification for going to Windows 8.1 on your new laptop, to get the best performance from it.

Here are my throughput readings for my SSD RAID0 2x128GB and 512GB Samsung 840 Pro SSD, on my G750JH running Windows 8.1

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dhess83
09-18-2014, 05:59 AM
Win7, the New Computer
41261

I'll test the other scenarios tomorrow. Thanks for your help.

hmscott
09-18-2014, 06:22 AM
Win7, the New Computer
41261

I'll test the other scenarios tomorrow. Thanks for your help.

dhess83, happy to help :)

Unfortunately I just remembered that the JM is the exception to the rule that all G750's running Windows 8.1 can download and use the latest Nvidia drivers.

For many/all the JM's running with Windows 8.1, it's shipping OS, has a BSOD problem with any Nvidia drivers after 332.60.

If you run 332.60 or before there are no crashes, but upgrading to newer Nvidia drivers currently causes BSOD's, more certain for some games / apps, eventual for others. So far only one person with a JM has reported having no crashes running 340.52...

We are all assuming Nvidia/Microsoft will solve the problem and ship Nvidia drivers that don't crash, but so far, not so much.

Something to consider before migrating back to Windows 8.1.

332.60 isn't so old as to be a non-starter, but still, it is something to consider.

Your Read Speed looks like the culprit, as the Write speed is near the SATA III limit - I think 540MB/s R/W is the fastest possible.

I wonder what the Read issue is, and if it can be tuned better.

I use Raxco PerfectDisk to optimize my JH SSD RAID0. I have helped several people get their JH/JZ RAID0 Read speed up from ~800MB/sec to over 1000MB/sec. It might be something to try, there is a free 30 day fully operational eval.

http://download.raxco.com/perfectdisk-pro

On the first run after install, change the profile template to SMARTPlacement - and after that first optimization pass completes, change it back to SSDOptimze.

41263

41264

Have fun :)

gazzacbr
09-18-2014, 06:52 AM
Hi,
just run crystaldiskmark on my G750JX which has 2 (oldish) 500mb Crucial M4s, one in bay 0 and one in bay 1.
the results for windows 8.1 and windows 7 are almost exactly the same (actually slightly higher on windows 7, 1 to 5%).
on either windows testing either drive.
@hmscott, your raid 0 is really impressive, its nearly double the speed of my disks :(
(windows 7 attached here)
41265

hmscott
09-18-2014, 07:02 AM
Hi,
just run crystaldiskmark on my G750JX which has 2 (oldish) 200mb Crucial M4s, one in bay 0 and one in bay 1.
the results for windows 8.1 and windows 7 are almost exactly the same (actually slightly higher on windows 7, 1 to 5%).
on either windows testing either drive.
@hmscott, your raid 0 is really impressive, its nearly double the speed of my disks :(
(windows 7 attached here)
41265

gazzacbr, in general Windows 7/8 SSD performance has been the same for me too. Run to run variances occur due to the varying nature of Windows multi-tasking random disk accesses during the run, but ignoring those variances the performance has been the same.

I wasn't trying to say that Windows 7 won't perform as well as Windows 8 for disk IO, just with this particular SSD the driver / hardware tuning matched better on Windows 7 for his G75VL hardware vs Windows 7 and the G750JM hardware.

I am hoping Windows 8.1 + driver will be better tuned for his G750JM hardware and that particular SSD - we may find it has the same lower Read performance on the G750JM than the G75VL - the result being the G75VL hardware matches better with that SSD than the G750JM does.

The next thing I would suggest is for him to check the firmware on his SSD, and see if there is an update. That might help too.

It might be that new SSD might be the best option for the G750VM, using either Windows 7 or Windows 8.

What do you think?

The hardware RAID0 was a big draw for me to the JH - IO performance is the main bottleneck these days. The JH/JZ RAID0 for me is as big of a draw for me as the 780m/880m.

I spend far more time limited by disk IO than GPU performance, so I am more interested in an upgrade to a PCIE M.2 RAID0, than a new Maxwell GPU, in my replacement laptop - better chance for a real performance boost. :)

gazzacbr
09-18-2014, 07:34 AM
Hi,
certainly check for a firmware update as it is possible that something has been changed for windows 8.1 but i doubt it.
now is the best time to do it anyway.

@dhess83: for a real check either a dual boot (my choice but if you do disable the windows 8 fast shutdown ) or full clean install of windows 7 and windows 8.1 on your new 750 will be the only way to get a true indication of the relative speeds. Minitool Partition Wizard (free) will split the disk for you if required. basic install only, no virus checker and no internet. once windows is setup remember to do the test in both drive bays just incase there is something wrong with one of them.
oh, and, agree about putting an HDD in a gaming laptop (except as second disk for storage). these are expensive laptops anyway and people who buy this type of laptop want speed above anything else. HDD and SSD are night and day for an OS disk.

dhess83
09-18-2014, 07:43 AM
Okay now I'm back to my original Windows 7 64 installation on my original G75VL. I have to say I don't understand these results.

41266

hmscott
09-18-2014, 07:49 AM
Okay now I'm back to my original Windows 7 64 installation on my original G75VL. I have to say I don't understand these results.

41266

dhess83, you must have some kind of ram cache acceleration installed. Samsung has RAPID for their SSD's. You need to disable that software before running the benchmark, otherwise you are benchmarking the cache.

https://www.samsung.com/hu/business-images/resource/white-paper/2014/01/Whitepaper-Samsung_SSD_Rapid_Mode-0.pdf

What make/model/size SSD have we been discussing? :)

Once you discover the caching software, and install it on the G750JM, that should make up the missing performance that the Windows Disk IO test is showing.

dhess83
09-18-2014, 08:38 AM
dhess83, you must have some kind of ram cache acceleration installed. Samsung has RAPID for their SSD's
You hit the nail on that one, you guys know your stuff. I disabled it.

Here is the CrystalDiskMark on my old computer, corrected:
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What make/model/size SSD have we been discussing?

SAMSUNG 840 EVO, 500GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147249

hmscott
09-19-2014, 04:08 PM
You hit the nail on that one, you guys know your stuff. I disabled it.
SAMSUNG 840 EVO, 500GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147249

dhess83, did you enable RAPID on the new install and re-run the Windows performance tests? Is it ok now?