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ELZZZORRO
01-10-2015, 11:07 PM
Hi, I purchased the SSD Samsung 840 EVO 500gig and removed the 1TB HDD (secondary Drive of course). Only to find out that my SSD can not fully perform as the SATA port connected to is a 3Gb/s not 6Gb/s. Now what?? I can not connect to the primary SATA port as my 250 Gb 2m drive is in the way??? Any suggestions will be appreciated

hmscott
01-10-2015, 11:39 PM
Hi, I purchased the SSD Samsung 840 EVO 500gig and removed the 1TB HDD (secondary Drive of course). Only to find out that my SSD can not fully perform as the SATA port connected to is a 3Gb/s not 6Gb/s. Now what?? I can not connect to the primary SATA port as my 250 Gb 2m drive is in the way??? Any suggestions will be appreciated

ELZZZORRO, it's a well known (now) feature of the G751, the 2nd bay is a SATA II connection. And, as you know the M.2 PCIE x4 SSD covers Bay 1 effectively blocking using the SATAIII port.

There are a couple of things you might try. I have posted them early, but so far noone has reported trying it :)

1) Get a M.2 PCIE x4 extension cable and put the M.2 PCIE x4 drive in the 2nd Bay, and then put your SATA III drive into Bay 1 - route the cable somehow...

2) Route a SATA III cable from Bay 1 to Bay 2, and use a 1.8" SSD, see link for suggested drives.

G751-JY sata connection question
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?55610-G751-JY-sata-connection-question&p=462063&viewfull=1#post462063

3) Use external drives on USB 3.0, but for right now the Microsoft USB 3.0 drivers aren't running at Superspeed, only at USB 2.0 Full Speed. There is a hack to install Intel USB 3.0 drivers from Windows 7, but it isn't working (so far, keep trying) on Windows 8.1 for the G751.

G751 - AC WLAN only at 7 MB per sec!?
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?55158-G751-AC-WLAN-only-at-7-MB-per-sec!&p=464477&viewfull=1#post464477

ELZZZORRO, you are the one that posted the link to installing the Windows 7 Intel USB 3.0 drivers on Windows 8/8.1, have you tried it yet?

Please let us know what you work out :)

ELZZZORRO
01-11-2015, 12:03 AM
Thanks hmscott, I just wonder if I can invert the the SATA II and III. There is a screw that holds the plastics bridge that holds both SATA connectors. But I am afraid I am going to break something.

As far as the "USB_3.0_eXtensible_Host_Controller" issues with windows 8.1, I tried everything with no success.

escha
01-11-2015, 12:13 AM
i believe it is the way the pcb is printed - sata routes traced, probably can't do anything about it except for what hmscot suggests

hmscott
01-11-2015, 12:48 AM
Thanks hmscott, I just wonder if I can invert the the SATA II and III. There is a screw that holds the plastics bridge that holds both SATA connectors. But I am afraid I am going to break something.

As far as the "USB_3.0_eXtensible_Host_Controller" issues with windows 8.1, I tried everything with no success.

ELZZZORRO, I thought the same thing, swap the connectors between bays, as previous models have had such a configuration, but the G751 is a space optimized G750 redesign, that puts the SATA connectors soldered directly to the motherboard, so they can't be swapped:

45358

Too bad about the Intel drivers for USB hack not working on the G751... wonder what the hangup is? I am thinking the Windows 7 drivers used are the wrong ones for the hardware chips used in the G751, and there are several other driver packages for Windows 7 USB for different hardware chipssets, I wonder if another USB 3.0 package from Intel for another hardware chipset might work?

The G750 uses the C220, what does the G751 use?

ELZZZORRO
01-11-2015, 12:49 AM
Thanks, something to consider to who-ever is interested on purchasing the ASUS ROG G751JY gaming laptop. If you ever want to upgrade your secondary HDD for a SSD SATA III connection, ain't happening. Limited to SATA II.

ELZZZORRO
01-11-2015, 01:22 AM
Nice picture, and information. I was about to rip apart the SATA connectors until I saw your picture. Great.

I am running another Samsung SSD 840 Series through thunderbolt via a MAC Adapter I found. Getting the same write/read speeds as my SSD Samsung 840 EVO through the secondary SATA II port at same speeds= 240MB/s.

The G751 uses the same C220.

hmscott
01-11-2015, 04:28 AM
Nice picture, and information. I was about to rip apart the SATA connectors until I saw your picture. Great.

I am running another Samsung SSD 840 Series through thunderbolt via a MAC Adapter I found. Getting the same write/read speeds as my SSD Samsung 840 EVO through the secondary SATA II port at same speeds= 240MB/s.

The G751 uses the same C220.

ELZZZORRO, what is the Thunderbolt enclosure make/model, that is SATAII speed results, pretty poor for Thunderbolt. Which driver are you using, did you adjust the Thunderbolt systray settings?

Thunderbolt: Intel Thunderbolt drive
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&DwnldID=23742&lang=eng&wapkw=thunderbolt+drivers

The G751 could be using something else besides the C220 that is causing the driver to crash with error 10 upon start.

ELZZZORRO
01-25-2015, 07:47 PM
I was not getting the speeds from my Samsung 840 EVO installed on my secondary bay as is limited to SATA II. The 1st bay is occupied by the M.2PCIE drive and bracket. Therefore I made the decision to get a SATA III SATA 3 Male to Female 5 wire 8 Inch Extension Cable and connect to the 1st bay SATA III port.


45884

The only way to fit this SATA ext cable is by rooting the cable from underneath the bridge that holds the two SATA connectors, however it will not fit so I had to cut the surrounding rubber:


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After, I just insulated with industrial electrical tape where I initially removed the SATA EXT Cable head rubber, placed the SSD on bracket and installed the other end to the SATA III port, tucked the cables as best I could.


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45890


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I will probably be replacing the 8" SATA ext cable with a: 5" or 6" for better fit, however, with the 8" I never had to force or put any pressure when closing the back cover door.



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Thanks, now I hope ASUS fixes the sound issues and I am all set.

demonz500
01-25-2015, 08:15 PM
I'm thinking to buy a G751. But if the 2nd bay is not SATA III, I don't think I and probably many other people will buy this model.
Even G750's drive bays are SATA III.
Why the hell would Asus include SATA II port?
They include Pcie port, but limit to install another hard drive on the 1st bay, then the 2nd bay is SATA II.
It's so funny, I have no idea why Asus does this.

ELZZZORRO
01-25-2015, 08:19 PM
I'm thinking to buy a G751. But if the 2nd bay is not SATA III, I don't think I and probably many other people will buy this model.
Even G750's drive bays are SATA III.
Why the hell would Asus include SATA II port?
They include Pcie port, but limit to install another hard drive on the 1st bay, then the 2nd bay is SATA II.
It's so funny, I have no idea why Asus does this.

Tell me about it! I was disappointed when I decided to swap the 2.5 HD to an SSD only to find out that my SSD was connected to a SATA II. Anyway, as far as that goes I am all set up now.

Clintlgm
01-25-2015, 09:34 PM
Yes you might have just convinced me to wait for the next generation to upgrade. USB 3.0 works good on my G75VW as fast as the hard drives I put in them anyway. Your re route is a option for SATA 3 connection moving to the secondary location Asus should have caught this bottle neck. Shouldn't have to mod like this for current technology. And how do they not have USB 3.0 Right? They no longer give us a eSATA port so you would think that would have been a priority for them to get USB 3.0 right??

Clintlgm
01-25-2015, 09:51 PM
There was another post in the Notebook review forum, some one figured out how to put a SSD on top of the M.2 having both in the same bay. hmscott ask him to post here but I haven't see this yet here or there.

hmscott
01-26-2015, 03:25 AM
There was another post in the Notebook review forum, some one figured out how to put a SSD on top of the M.2 having both in the same bay. hmscott ask him to post here but I haven't see this yet here or there.

Clintlgm, it was a suggestion I made early on how to possibly take advantage of both M.2 / SATA III in Bay #1. I suggested installing the 2.5" drive without the caddy, and the M.2 without the tray, and it looks like it works, at least with the elements installed that deteplete3 posted:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/asus-gaming-notebook-forum/761783-asus-g751-coming-maxwell-gtx-980m-gtx-970m-3.html#post9900828

The idea came from seeing the M.2 tray without the M.2 drive - the humps used to support the M.2 drive looked large enough to be about the same thickness as a 2.5" SSD, so it looked like installing both without mountings would allow both to be plugged in at the same time, and it looks like it works :)

deteplete3 hasn't posted photo's, but it shouldn't be too hard to fit the drives using tape / foam into the Bay.

If you do it, please post photo's, and if you want to, please make a how to post / video and we can make it a sticky. :)

Clintlgm
01-26-2015, 04:46 AM
Well Hmscott, I haven't check out that Cart yet, and I'm not sure I'm going to for this generation I may just wait a few months to see how the next generation works I don't game so this G75 is still working good. I was looking very seriously as I usually buy new every 3 years which is coming up in July

hmscott
01-26-2015, 07:03 AM
Well Hmscott, I haven't check out that Cart yet, and I'm not sure I'm going to for this generation I may just wait a few months to see how the next generation works I don't game so this G75 is still working good. I was looking very seriously as I usually buy new every 3 years which is coming up in July

Clintlgm, it sounded like you were interested here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/asus-gaming-notebook-forum/761783-asus-g751-coming-maxwell-gtx-980m-gtx-970m-2.html#post9903388

The G751 is a great laptop, nothing to wait for, the sound problem is sad, but can be worked around.

Hopefully ASUS will continue to make straight discrete Nvidia laptops like the G751JT/JY, and stop making Optimus laptops like the G750JY/JZ/JS/JM - but it's possible the G751JT/JY are the last non-Optimus laptops - that's not worth waiting for :)

NitroX
01-26-2015, 01:04 PM
Clintlgm, it sounded like you were interested here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/asus-gaming-notebook-forum/761783-asus-g751-coming-maxwell-gtx-980m-gtx-970m-2.html#post9903388

The G751 is a great laptop, nothing to wait for, the sound problem is sad, but can be worked around.

Hopefully ASUS will continue to make straight discrete Nvidia laptops like the G751JT/JY, and stop making Optimus laptops like the G750JY/JZ/JS/JM - but it's possible the G751JT/JY are the last non-Optimus laptops - that's not worth waiting for :)

I do wonder if the optimus is a negative option or a positive one. I saw reviews of gaming laptops with optimus that don't seem to have any issues. To be honest I would've liked to see how long the battery would've lasted on this beast if optimus was functional :)). If it can reach 4hours with the dedicated graphics, then with optimus I think it could reach 8-9 hours by downclocking the CPU a bit.

hmscott
01-26-2015, 03:55 PM
I do wonder if the optimus is a negative option or a positive one. I saw reviews of gaming laptops with optimus that don't seem to have any issues. To be honest I would've liked to see how long the battery would've lasted on this beast if optimus was functional :)). If it can reach 4hours with the dedicated graphics, then with optimus I think it could reach 8-9 hours by downclocking the CPU a bit.

NitroX, well I guess the only way to be sure is to buy a G750JY and live with it. Then let us know how you like it.

And, the G750's have all had 2 x SATA III ports (keeping on topic), so you'll have that :)

NitroX
01-26-2015, 08:09 PM
Yep, sorry for the off-topic. I did follow the whole thread and I am glad to see that there is a solution to make use of all ports of the laptop. Though, it's sad that in my country we don't have any PCIe SSDs on the market, and they are also very very expensive to order them. I will stick to a 256 or 512gb Crucial MX100 on SataIII.
I don't think I will have the pleasure of checking a G750 :P but maybe, in the future, I will go for a Clevo or a RoG with optimus. Until now, I only had the G75VW and this G751 both without optimus and I can't say that I had any issues with the graphics card. On the other part, the 2 to 4 hours autonomy wasn't very great either :)).

Aaand, forgive me for asking another thing (also kinda off-topic but i've seen it in here). What is the problem with the USB Ports? None of them are working at 3.0 speeds? They all act like a USB 2.0 ?

AQUASTEVAE
05-13-2015, 10:50 PM
it is exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxtremely frustrating to say the least, that asus continues to do such stupid things, like using a sata II port in bay 2, and blocking bay 1 with the pcie brace. wow! beyond belief. however, as soon as i get a chance to get some electrical tape, hmscott, i am going to try your solution of using both drives in bay 1 without the braces. i treat my laptop like gold, so it's not like it gets knocked around or anything. so i am game as soon as i get the tape.
now, that leads to further questions, such as, what is the port the the blueray plugs into? is it sata II or III? because i currently have a ssd in that slot, and if i do put both drives in bay 1, then i might move my 500gb ssd back to bay 2, unless the blueray port is sata III. thanks for your help.

AQUASTEVAE
05-13-2015, 11:57 PM
Clintlgm, it was a suggestion I made early on how to possibly take advantage of both M.2 / SATA III in Bay #1. I suggested installing the 2.5" drive without the caddy, and the M.2 without the tray, and it looks like it works, at least with the elements installed that deteplete3 posted:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/asus-gaming-notebook-forum/761783-asus-g751-coming-maxwell-gtx-980m-gtx-970m-3.html#post9900828

The idea came from seeing the M.2 tray without the M.2 drive - the humps used to support the M.2 drive looked large enough to be about the same thickness as a 2.5" SSD, so it looked like installing both without mountings would allow both to be plugged in at the same time, and it looks like it works :)

deteplete3 hasn't posted photo's, but it shouldn't be too hard to fit the drives using tape / foam into the Bay.

If you do it, please post photo's, and if you want to, please make a how to post / video and we can make it a sticky. :)

just curious what your opinion is about this drive: Samsung XP941 512GB AHCI M.2 80mm PCIe 2.0 x4 SSD - MZHPU512HCGL - OEM
i found this on amazon, and was wondering if this is the fastest pcie ssd 500g i could put into the pcie slot in bay 1?
also, just curious if we can put a pcie 3 card in this slot? and if so, will it be faster, or is our pcie connector governed down to pcie 2 speeds? last question, can a 80mm fit into our drive bays? thanks!

Clintlgm
05-14-2015, 01:51 AM
No, very little bandwidth is required for Optical drives I've heard SATA1 Or SATA 1.5

hexaae
05-31-2015, 06:57 AM
Are we sure it's not just a Firmware issue?

Because I noticed both Speccy and HWiNfo say it is actually a SATA III port on the 2nd bay, but with maxtransfer set to 3GB/s.

[img=http://s29.postimg.org/6ly7blo6b/image.jpg] (http://postimg.org/image/6ly7blo6b/) [img=http://s29.postimg.org/7zpu6wnfn/image.jpg] (http://postimg.org/image/7zpu6wnfn/)

Do really exist SATA III controllers @3GB/s???

escha
05-31-2015, 08:55 AM
these is information about the disk itself. It is SATA III compatible disk but working at SATA II speed due to being connected through such port

hexaae
05-31-2015, 12:53 PM
But I expected it to be SATA 3Gb @3Gb then... why it says SATA 6Gb @3Gb? I'm not 100% convinced.

Xehanort
05-31-2015, 01:02 PM
Like he said, it says SATA 6GB/s @ 3GB/s because the drive itself is SATA III compatible. What speccy and hwinfo are saying is that you have a SATA III compatible drive operating at SATA II speed due to the port its inserted to.

What really puzzles me is Asus' decision of leaving a SATA II port instead of a III. It is one of the very few flaws this laptop has, one they could've easily avoided...

hexaae
05-31-2015, 10:03 PM
Yep....
The only negative things for ASUS 751JY are the ridiculous 2nd bay SATA II and the faulty USB port on the left side...

Xehanort
06-01-2015, 05:14 PM
I've actually been pretty lucky with the left side USB ports, can't seem to recall any problems and I haven't even updated my BIOS yet xD

hexaae
06-02-2015, 07:19 AM
I noticed problems only when I connected a full speed 3.0 USB HD in the 2nd port from top, or using my Logitech M305 wireless mouse in the 2nd port from top + full speed 3.0 USB external HD in the 1st port.... Randomly the drive switched ON/OFF and/or the mouse was jerky during some copy operations...

Che
08-09-2015, 06:44 PM
swf

Che
08-09-2015, 06:48 PM
How did you acommodate the female connector? Can / must the original be removed?
According to this thread both HDD SATA connectors inside the G751 are soldered to the MB...

Che
08-11-2015, 07:54 PM
I can cnfirm that m2.pcie and and ssd fit in bay one, provided they are both installed withthe brackets. The ssd goes in first, the m2.pcie on top.
works like a charm!

Che
08-13-2015, 07:04 PM
sorry, I meant of course without the brackets!

mryanmarkryan
08-14-2015, 04:16 PM
My goal is to take my G751JM and upgrade it to SSD. I've been reading the above posts. What I would like is one of the latest SSD in the 1st drive (replacing the HHD with the SSD Cache. The 2nd port currently has a spinning drive and I would like to replace that as well with a SSD. Basically both drives will come out and be replaced with SSD drives. From what I understand, I can buy a SSD 6gb/s and use a special cable to connect it to the 1st drive? The 2nd drie would have to be a SSD 2 drive right? No way around that? I think with the first drive being the power drive and the 2nd being mostly storage, that would be fine speedwise. Am I calling this right? Thanks in advance :)

aeolisio
08-14-2015, 08:10 PM
My goal is to take my G751JM and upgrade it to SSD. I've been reading the above posts. What I would like is one of the latest SSD in the 1st drive (replacing the HHD with the SSD Cache. The 2nd port currently has a spinning drive and I would like to replace that as well with a SSD. Basically both drives will come out and be replaced with SSD drives. From what I understand, I can buy a SSD 6gb/s and use a special cable to connect it to the 1st drive? The 2nd drie would have to be a SSD 2 drive right? No way around that? I think with the first drive being the power drive and the 2nd being mostly storage, that would be fine speedwise. Am I calling this right? Thanks in advance :)
if both drives are 2.5 or the first drive is a pcie m.2 you dont need any cables.
1. You could run a pcie in the m.2 and a naked drive under it but you might get thermal throttling on the pcie but then you could have a third drive in bay 2.
2. Another option is to run a m.2 pcie in bay 1 and a cable from the first bay sata port to the second bay sata drive to have the second bay be sata 3 instead of sata 2.
3. Really though the best option for performance is to get the largest m.2 ssd ahci SM951 you can afford for bay 1 and use bay 2 with whatever you already have for storage because your main drive is what your going to see the most benefit from speed. The difference between a pcie ssd and a 2.5 ssd is huge and i would always recommend using a pcie. I have a thread showing the 3d printed bracket i made for the m.2 here
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?71609-G751JY-DB73X-and-other-G751-s-M-2-bracket-3d-printed-and-heatsinked

Che
08-15-2015, 11:38 AM
if you have the version with both a m2.pcie connector and a SATA connector in bay one, no special cables are required for installation of a SATA 3 SSD. You just plug it in ant that's it.

If you want to go for maximum speed, an m2.pcie ssd is always preferrable, it is several times faster than a sata3 ssd.

As I said: I installed a sata3 ssd in bay one (without bracket), and on top of it the m2.ssd, also without bracket. I am not sure how hot both devices get, but sofar I had no issues. My system does not feel throttled at all :-)

hexaae
05-31-2016, 01:10 PM
Hi, I purchased the SSD Samsung 840 EVO 500gig and removed the 1TB HDD (secondary Drive of course). Only to find out that my SSD can not fully perform as the SATA port connected to is a 3Gb/s not 6Gb/s. Now what?? I can not connect to the primary SATA port as my 250 Gb 2m drive is in the way??? Any suggestions will be appreciated

Perfect choice a Samsung EVO SSD for G751JY's SATAII port (no, I'm not crazy): enable Rapid Mode with Samsung Magician (http://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/download/tools.html) 4.9.7+ and you'll solve slowness of SATAII at the cost of a RAM cache buffer. That's what I've done myself many months ago and I'm quite satisfied, with no need to buy an M.2 or HW hacks. Besides benchmarks, every day REAL performance is quite good and I can't see a noticeable difference with my other G752VY and the same SSD mounted in the SATA3 port, tested with the same Steam games archived there: loading times are very close.
It's a smart (software) solution to workaround SATAII bottleneck.

https://38ansq-sn3302.files.1drv.com/y3mVOcD3cW55NtlDRbWMKbewJ9PR4vzfNAkYom10MohhGJTLmk 42yrg3QKPaLEgmgu2BjkuRFHwKnkg3a_kFRclJFA7Wg7gwVHI7 Z0pveP-hzzj-UmcQ7996XqrpQSgh1ukWSyYeNCTOoMmk5CzJPyhaA?width=46 8&height=729&cropmode=none

JustinThyme
06-01-2016, 03:52 AM
You might want to give this a read before you get too happy with rapid mode. Looks like a miracle is short bursts until you put it to a real test then it tanks horrendously.
Run crystalmarks with stock settings and you think its on steroids, then run it again and change the default cluster from 1GB to 16GB and prepare to cry where you will immediately disable rapid mode.

http://techreport.com/review/25282/a-closer-look-at-rapid-dram-caching-on-the-samsung-840-evo-ssd

hexaae
06-05-2016, 08:04 AM
You might want to give this a read before you get too happy with rapid mode. Looks like a miracle is short bursts until you put it to a real test then it tanks horrendously.
Run crystalmarks with stock settings and you think its on steroids, then run it again and change the default cluster from 1GB to 16GB and prepare to cry where you will immediately disable rapid mode.

http://techreport.com/review/25282/a-closer-look-at-rapid-dram-caching-on-the-samsung-840-evo-ssd
Yes I know that article but was very old (first versions of Samsung Magician, now it's 4.9.7).
I myself wasn't using Rapid mode before, also because it was suspected of corrupting data on Windows 10 from some early user reports. Consider at that time users were forcing Win10 support since initially SM was officially supporting only up to Windows 8.
I decided to give it a new chance recently and, well, as I said real world performance are quite good and very close to the same drive speed on a SATA3 port (tested on huge Steam games). IGNORE BENCHMARKS.
I recommend it for the SATAII port of our G751JY, now. It's the only brand with a software cache trick to speed-up transfers.

hexaae
10-30-2016, 05:17 PM
Just to add that also Crucial has its own RAM disk cache like Samsung Rapid: Momentum Cache and works quite well on par with Samsung software. This means you can tweak your G751JY system with a Samsung EVO 850 (PRO) SSD + Crucial MX300 SSD for extra speed (noticeable but not always evident) at the cost of 2+2GB of RAM... Just FYI.

https://sezwmq-sn3302.files.1drv.com/y3mZpEANitRdAgLN53KS79IS_j3reieqU5tDlx_LY6ExPmeZCL Dx1_KQZUW3xAiGFtoXuRruVRe3_PI7vsD9JcEUEv8_xD6MM0ba jumW1Vc8rl6teOgO23Nz-qdoq5lZPITnF7in0I3dMuEcz26CptGjc4BBW0A_g4L6s4FrHAi gAg

JustinThyme
11-03-2016, 07:14 AM
Ram disk cache IMO isn't good for much of anything but benchmarks with smaller packets. Problem is once the cache size is set that part of your memory is now reserved exclusively for cache, cant be used for any other processes. If you have plenty to spare, like 64GB, then that's not an issue. The other issue is no matter how much you have and how much you allot once the cache is full the speed plummets to worse than having no ram cache as when saturated you are just reading/writing the same data twice without the speed of the ram to move it along.

hexaae
11-07-2016, 06:42 PM
Ram disk cache IMO isn't good for much of anything but benchmarks with smaller packets. Problem is once the cache size is set that part of your memory is now reserved exclusively for cache, cant be used for any other processes.

No mem problem with 24GB (these disk caches can consume 2-4GB max theoretically). About its effectiveness yes and no... sometimes you can actually see an appreciable difference in loading speed and HD led being off, but I agree 60% times you can't see any real difference (in real usage I mean). After all also Windows 10 has its own cache system with Prefetch+Superfetch...
There's another technical indirect benefit in using a disk cache though: less SSD usage, hence should last even longer.


The other issue is no matter how much you have and how much you allot once the cache is full the speed plummets to worse than having no ram cache as when saturated you are just reading/writing the same data twice without the speed of the ram to move it along.

Mmmh from real usage I can't see worse performance, never. In the worst case I can't see speed differences as written above.

feihtthief
04-14-2019, 10:11 AM
I will probably be replacing the 8" SATA ext cable with a: 5" or 6" for better fit, however, with the 8" I never had to force or put any pressure when closing the back cover door.

Did you ever find a Shorter 5# or 6# cable?

I'm looking to do this myself at the moment and the shortest one I can find online is 11#