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quazor
02-01-2017, 08:35 PM
Hello.
Around month i have bought g752vt - standarc bundle (8BG Ram + 1TB).
Right away i have added to it ssd - at first Patriot Hellfire 2280 240 GB. Before doing (installing) anything
i have updated BIOS to 2016.
SSD wasnt detected by win10 installer. I have googled a bit, read sth about RAID/AHCI thingy.
Switched to AHCI. Didnt help right away, but pulling HDD out, helped, SSD showed up in installer.
Installer win10. Asus drivers with Asus Installation Wizard. I have mostly focues on benchmarking CPU/GPU.
After few days i benchmarked my SSD, result were bad - mainly WRITE ops. ATTO benchmarks looked ok, but
CDM, AS SSD, Anvil very bad. My first thought was that there is sth wrong with this disk so i have returned it and
hardware store i bought it from i accepted it after runnig some "diagnosis". I bought another one exactly same model.
Unfortunately same problem occured with regard to its performance. This time tried to do some shenanigans, install/uninstall win10, install/unistall IRST, benchamrk it with OS/ wo OS. I have even managed to run it under RAID mode, but it didnt help either,
it was even slower, but i guess it was due to inferior driver (iaSTORa). I have also tried downgrading BIOS to 214. Didnt change anything. Then i noticed this SSD is running very high temp.(67-75) even when idle. So i came to conclusion that this might be the issue and decided to return it again and try different brand. Today i bought Plextor M8pe(G) 256GB.
Unfortunately same issues or even worse. With Patriot in AHCI mode i could see a NVME Configuration menu entry in BIOS, but
for Plextor there is none. Win10 detects it, installs driver, but it is see as "removable drive" even thought AS SSD shows it is using stornvme driver. Test results in CDM seems "OK", but in AS SSD/Anvil are very bad - with regard to WRITE ops.
SSD came with updated firmware, cant do much more here.
My g752 is on bios214 currently. FastBoot, CMS, secureBoot all OFF. I always initialize with GPT - tried MBR with Patriot, but
there was no difference at all.
Plextor issued some new app called Plextool. I have run it, it doesnt detect this SSD.
I m considering returning my g752vt on warantee, but i would like to avoid it. I know ppl mostly had problems with samsung 950 PRO with regard to nvme.
Can someone give me some advice on where to look for potential errors on my side or software side (microsoft/intel/asus/plextor) ?

I would appreciate any kind of help.

Julskey
02-02-2017, 01:49 AM
Can you try benchmark using crystaldisk and post results so that we can compare results?

I also have a G752VT and here is my result.

Samsung 950 PRO:
62295

By comparison, Samsung 850 EVO:
62296

Buggsy
02-02-2017, 03:03 PM
Your problem is that you are using AHCI. With an NVMe drive, you have to use RAID, which means when you install Windows 10 you need the RAID drivers from Asus. the AHCI protocol is *kind of* like downgrading your NVMe to a SATA drive. You end up throttling the crap out of that NVMe drive.

Check out this chart from Wiki. It explains it better than I can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express#Comparison_with_AHCI

quazor
02-02-2017, 07:21 PM
Your problem is that you are using AHCI. With an NVMe drive, you have to use RAID, which means when you install Windows 10 you need the RAID drivers from Asus. the AHCI protocol is *kind of* like downgrading your NVMe to a SATA drive. You end up throttling the crap out of that NVMe drive.

Check out this chart from Wiki. It explains it better than I can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express#Comparison_with_AHCI

Ok, so i should try to install win10 with RAID mode enabled ?
Do you know maybe which of this directories from Asus (eSupport dir) contains proper driver ?
Thanks for a clue! :)

Update: I did try installing win10 on NVME (RAID mode), but wasnt detected. I have tried installing Intel RAID controller, but go bluescreen (iaStorAV.sys failed). If i tried installing Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\stornv me.inf_amd64_81abc12481a950f2, it doesnt detect any compatible hardware. Are you sure i should try to run it under RAID mode ? I did little trick with win10 safe to switch my current installation to RAID mode - it worked, but now NVME is not even detected in win10. I try "Scan for hardware changes", but nothing is found. Any ideas ?
Update2: Ok, i guess i forgot to install Intel Rapid Storage Driver. After that, NVME showed up, but similarly to my Patriot experience, it runs on
iaStorA.sys driver. On READ-side performance is the same but WRITE is even worse. Like i wrote, with CDM i had "ok" results (under AHCI mode and as secondary storage), but now even CDM shows bad results. Do i need to try to force-install stronvme.sys somehow ?
Update3: Ok, bad performance in CDM was due to disabled "Write cache policy" - manufacturer recomends to enable it. But performance in AS SS is still bad:
62322
So to summarize, i would say nothing to little has changed in terms of performance in AS SSD. In terms of compatibility, i cant install win10 - maybe i need to try different build version of this driver? And now (in RAID mode) CrystalDiskInfo doesnt detect my NVME completely. Plextool also doesnt detect it.

Julskey
02-02-2017, 10:46 PM
Ok, so i should try to install win10 with RAID mode enabled ?
Do you know maybe which of this directories from Asus (eSupport dir) contains proper driver ?
Thanks for a clue! :)

Update: I did try installing win10 on NVME (RAID mode), but wasnt detected. I have tried installing Intel RAID controller, but go bluescreen (iaStorAV.sys failed). If i tried installing Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\stornv me.inf_amd64_81abc12481a950f2, it doesnt detect any compatible hardware. Are you sure i should try to run it under RAID mode ? I did little trick with win10 safe to switch my current installation to RAID mode - it worked, but now NVME is not even detected in win10. I try "Scan for hardware changes", but nothing is found. Any ideas ?
Update2: Ok, i guess i forgot to install Intel Rapid Storage Driver. After that, NVME showed up, but similarly to my Patriot experience, it runs on
iaStorA.sys driver. On READ-side performance is the same but WRITE is even worse. Like i wrote, with CDM i had "ok" results (under AHCI mode and as secondary storage), but now even CDM shows bad results. Do i need to try to force-install stronvme.sys somehow ?
Update3: Ok, bad performance in CDM was due to disabled "Write cache policy" - manufacturer recomends to enable it. But performance in AS SS is still bad:

So to summarize, i would say nothing to little has changed in terms of performance in AS SSD. In terms of compatibility, i cant install win10 - maybe i need to try different build version of this driver? And now (in RAID mode) CrystalDiskInfo doesnt detect my NVME completely. Plextool also doesnt detect it.

When you installed your windows 10, was your bios set to raid mode? If it was in AHCI when you installed it, I think it will stay in AHCI.

Try switching to RAID mode first before installing Windows 10. On installation, you must first load drivers before the installation detects your NVME drive. Use the one found in eSupport folder under Rapid Storage\intel\.. iaStorAC (I think) from the laptop. If already not available, try several drivers with link posted around this forum (some don't work), I know one works fine, I don't remember which one.

quazor
02-02-2017, 11:04 PM
When you installed your windows 10, was your bios set to raid mode? If it was in AHCI when you installed it, I think it will stay in AHCI.

Try switching to RAID mode first before installing Windows 10. On installation, you must first load drivers before the installation detects your NVME drive. Use the one found in eSupport folder under Rapid Storage\intel\.. iaStorAC (I think) from the laptop. If already not available, try several drivers with link posted around this forum (some don't work), I know one works fine, I don't remember which one.

Yes it was in AHCI. But after switching to RAID storage controller drivers changed, so there was some impact.
I ll try (yet again!) installing OS on NVME - we will see. Do you think i should try enabling CMS in BIOS ?
Lets assume i ll manage to install win10 on NVME (RAID mode). I guess driver used for it (in OS) will be iaStorAC. Is that ok? Shouldnt it be stornvme ?
Should i install IRST after fresh OS install ?

Ty for support!

Julskey
02-03-2017, 01:41 AM
Yes it was in AHCI. But after switching to RAID storage controller drivers changed, so there was some impact.
I ll try (yet again!) installing OS on NVME - we will see. Do you think i should try enabling CMS in BIOS ?
Lets assume i ll manage to install win10 on NVME (RAID mode). I guess driver used for it (in OS) will be iaStorAC. Is that ok? Shouldnt it be stornvme ?
Should i install IRST after fresh OS install ?

Ty for support!

I think CMS and fastboot should be disabled. I never installed any other driver for nvme, it's just the default windows drivers. Would not hurt to install drivers from your specific manufacturer.

Buggsy
02-03-2017, 02:10 PM
There is actually a sticky thread at the top that should help you. A guide to installing Windows 10 clean.
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?76993-Guide-How-to-install-windows-8-8-1-10-The-proper-way-(UEFI-based-installation)

JustinThyme
02-04-2017, 03:29 AM
Your problem is that you are using AHCI. With an NVMe drive, you have to use RAID, which means when you install Windows 10 you need the RAID drivers from Asus. the AHCI protocol is *kind of* like downgrading your NVMe to a SATA drive. You end up throttling the crap out of that NVMe drive.

Check out this chart from Wiki. It explains it better than I can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express#Comparison_with_AHCI

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Raid is only necessary when running a raid array. The BIOS is setting is misleading. It should be labeled raid enabled/disabled. NVMe does not use AHCI protocol, it uses NVMe totally different.*

People were actually making a fuss when the G752 first came out and you could not disable the raid.*

If you read around a bit you will see plenty of posts showing no performance difference in the two. I've run both ways and got similar results. The reason people were having a cow is Samsung drivers and Samsung magician cannot see past a raid controller. So when they made it where you can disable the raid more comparisons were done between native windows NVMe drivers and Samsungs (which only work on the consumer drives like lime 950 pro etc. *Samsung drivers and software does not work on OEM drives.*

ASSD has an issue with NVMe drives. Crystal Diskmark works much better. Just be prepared that you won't see the same results as the Samsung drives. They are top of the heap in NVMe.

Ive run my G752VY with 950 pros as single with both raid enabled and disabled, no discernible difference. I have fast boot disabled as well as CSM disabled with a UEFI install. I have two 512GBs. Now running raid zero which only offers a small improvement in sequential read but doubles sequential writes. *

I'm afraid where your problem lies is with selection of the SSD. It's better than a SATA SSD but is nowhere close to Samsung, not even in the same ballpark. It's about half the speed. Here's the results for Toms review comparisons. Hellfire is near the bottom.*

62344*

quazor
02-04-2017, 12:38 PM
Mystery Solved !!!</sarc>

It turns out it had nothing to do with BIOS mode or anything like it. Disk drive "write caching policy" is making huge difference for this technology:
62348
When disabled option 1. (effectively ALL) even CDM results were very BAD. This is described on manufacturer's website.
Enabling 2. option made results with AS SSD and Anvil OK.
To summarize (for those who might stumble on this thread while "hopelessly" searching for solution to their issues):
From my experience SATA mode (RAID/AHCI) havent had any effect on performance, but under RAID it is harder for win10 installer to
recognize NVME SSD's and makes win10 to use not recomended (by MS) driver for this hardaware (iaStorAC instead of stornvme).
For the sake of simplicity and comfort i am gonna switch back to AHCI mode and go for fresh install on my NVME.

As it turned out that all this time it was simply matter of proper win10 configuration i am considering switching back to Patriot
SSD (sic!), i can still return my current SSD without a reason. Patriot seems 50% faster on WRITE-side, but is made in lower
quality imo - overheating (i had 66-75, maybe due to bad win10 configuration, but i doubt it), shabby boxing, 3-year warranty only.
Plextor is super cool (i bought version with heat sink), some extra vendor-specific features (True Protect, True Speed), 5-year warranty and
a actual box with extra SCREW inside!!! But its slower nonetheless. I know this is a lil bit off-top, but maybe some of you could share his/her opinion
on this.

Anyways.
Ty all for your attention and support! I hope someday i can give sth back to the community in return.

Buggsy
02-06-2017, 03:12 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with this. Raid is only necessary when running a raid array. The BIOS is setting is misleading. It should be labeled raid enabled/disabled. NVMe does not use AHCI protocol, it uses NVMe totally different.*

People were actually making a fuss when the G752 first came out and you could not disable the raid.*

If you read around a bit you will see plenty of posts showing no performance difference in the two. I've run both ways and got similar results. The reason people were having a cow is Samsung drivers and Samsung magician cannot see past a raid controller. So when they made it where you can disable the raid more comparisons were done between native windows NVMe drivers and Samsungs (which only work on the consumer drives like lime 950 pro etc. *Samsung drivers and software does not work on OEM drives.*

ASSD has an issue with NVMe drives. Crystal Diskmark works much better. Just be prepared that you won't see the same results as the Samsung drives. They are top of the heap in NVMe.

Ive run my G752VY with 950 pros as single with both raid enabled and disabled, no discernible difference. I have fast boot disabled as well as CSM disabled with a UEFI install. I have two 512GBs. Now running raid zero which only offers a small improvement in sequential read but doubles sequential writes. *

I'm afraid where your problem lies is with selection of the SSD. It's better than a SATA SSD but is nowhere close to Samsung, not even in the same ballpark. It's about half the speed. Here's the results for Toms review comparisons. Hellfire is near the bottom.*

62344*


Thanks for the information. Sorry, I'll take your word for it as I know you are more knowledgeable about this specific platform. I knew that it wasn't running the disk in RAID exactly, but at the same time, AHCI shouldn't work on an NVMe drive, right? Unless it's only applicable to the SATA connections?

emsir
02-06-2017, 04:11 PM
Your problem is that you are using AHCI. With an NVMe drive, you have to use RAID, which means when you install Windows 10 you need the RAID drivers from Asus. the AHCI protocol is *kind of* like downgrading your NVMe to a SATA drive. You end up throttling the crap out of that NVMe drive.

Check out this chart from Wiki. It explains it better than I can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express#Comparison_with_AHCI

That's not true at all. You only use RAID with 2 identical HDD or SSD. And you don't need RAID drivers from ASUS. Windows 10 has it's own native NVME driver when installing Windows 10. When installing Windows 7 you have to point to the IRST driver on a USB disk and use the iaStorAC.inf driver. It has nothing to do with RAID, it's just a driver you use and not the Intel RAPID Storage Technology packet. You only use IRST when you have RAID configuration. Windows 7 does not have native NVME driver (the OS is too old) and that's why you use the driver from IRST.

When installing NVME SSD on Windows 10 you initialise the NVME SSD in Windows disk management and set it up as GPT. When done you either clone or make an image and recover from that to the NVME SSD (or clean install of Windows 10). Then you remove the old source drive or disable it in BOOT order and use Windows BOOT manager (NVME SSD) to boot. When Windows has loaded you download NVME driver from SSD manufacturer. now you have a blasting fast NVME SSD.

And just to inform you about SSD NVME. It's PCiexpress and uses Pciexpress lanes, and has nothing to do with AHCI. You can't turn AHCI on or off on Pciexpress SSD.

AHCI is for SATA devices and NVME SSD does not use SATA but PCiexpress.

Bios will automatically set the right x4 speed on NVME SSD M.2 slot. If you use Intel pciexpress SSD on the Pciexpress slot you must change the speed to x4 on Pciexpress_3x4 slot in BIOS . Only for Z170 and Z270 chipsets. Z97 is only 2x Pciexpress. First chipset that supports NVME SSD.

Buggsy
02-06-2017, 08:06 PM
That's not true at all. You only use RAID with 2 identical HDD or SSD. And you don't need RAID drivers from ASUS. Windows 10 has it's own native NVME driver when installing Windows 10. When installing Windows 7 you have to point to the IRST driver on a USB disk and use the iaStorAC.inf driver. It has nothing to do with RAID, it's just a driver you use and not the Intel RAPID Storage Technology packet. You only use IRST when you have RAID configuration. Windows 7 does not have native NVME driver (the OS is too old) and that's why you use the driver from IRST.

When installing NVME SSD on Windows 10 you initialise the NVME SSD in Windows disk management and set it up as GPT. When done you either clone or make an image and recover from that to the NVME SSD (or clean install of Windows 10). Then you remove the old source drive or disable it in BOOT order and use Windows BOOT manager (NVME SSD) to boot. When Windows has loaded you download NVME driver from SSD manufacturer. now you have a blasting fast NVME SSD.

And just to inform you about SSD NVME. It's PCiexpress and uses Pciexpress lanes, and has nothing to do with AHCI. You can't turn AHCI on or off on Pciexpress SSD.

AHCI is for SATA devices and NVME SSD does not use SATA but PCiexpress.

Bios will automatically set the right x4 speed on NVME SSD M.2 slot. If you use Intel pciexpress SSD on the Pciexpress slot you must change the speed to x4 on Pciexpress_3x4 slot in BIOS . Only for Z170 and Z270 chipsets. Z97 is only 2x Pciexpress. First chipset that supports NVME SSD.

I think you misunderstand. The OP said that it would only work in AHCI mode. I might have misunderstood if that setting was somehow affecting the NVMe or not (see my post above). But for a clean install, you 100% you need the IRST (RAID) driver. If you plug a single drive into a RAID controller (which it seems the M.2 slots are), you need the RAID driver to see it.