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06-22-2020, 02:18 PMCannon.19G751jy Temperature almost the same after changing thermal paste
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06-23-2020, 08:38 AMandreacos92
My guess: you shouldn't have used the 1 mm pads over the GPU VRMs. They are too thick to allow the right pressure and contact between CPU and copper CPU heatsink
Maybe even the 0.5 mm could be too thick.
With my latest repaste on G751JY I went with thermal paste everywhere, because even with 0.5 mm pads I noticed higher temperatures on some CPU cores (more than 10°C differences from hottest and coldest core), so I thought that heatsink was not completely "flat" on the CPU die. -
06-23-2020, 10:43 AMCannon.19
I initially went with 0.5mm for everything, but after I put the heatsink back on, I inspected the thermal pads from the sides with a lamp, and I could clearly see the light coming through between the VRMs and thermal pad, meaning there was no contact between them at all. That's why I went with 1mm for them. Other parts seemed to make contact with 0.5m just fine so I left them like that.
EDIT: Forgot to ask, what temperatures should I normally expect for cpu/gpu after cleaning everything and reapplying the paste? -
06-23-2020, 01:59 PMandreacos92
I know that with 0.5 mm pads or with thermal paste the VRMs are not well in contact with heatsink, but I gave priority to CPU and GPU die contact-pressure-cooling.
Anyway, in my case, using thermal paste over the VRMs resulted in a well spreaded thermal compound: I considered it quite enough.
The fact that other parts make a good contact with 0.5 mm can be seen in a negative way, they are relieving pressure from the chip dies.
About the temperature, I assume you have the 4710HQ or 4720HQ. I don't know exactly because my 4710HQ is undervolted in daily use and overvolted/overclocked when needed, but with stock clocks and voltages you should not touch thermal throttling like you experienced, unless your room temperature is over 30 °C.
Maybe in the middle 80s seems to be plausible and acceptable when playing demanding games.
Right now, with an ambient temperature of 28 °C (it's hot here), my CPU idles at 38-42 °C with a little undervolting (that has little/zero impact on idle temps anyway). -
06-23-2020, 02:04 PMCannon.19
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06-23-2020, 02:14 PMandreacos92
- 0.090 V is not a little undervolting, it's already a good result if your system is stable. Mine is -0.80 V, just for.
For Power limit throttling, you can raise the Turbo Boost Power from actual 47/58 W to 50/60 W if I remember correctly, and the Power Boost Windows from 8 seconds to maximum (I don't remember the value, maybe 64 sec).
This allows your CPU using 2-3 W more, with a little increase in clocks and temperatures as well. So in your situation this is not an improvement, because you are temperatures limited. So you should lower temperatures first.
In XTU you notice Power throttlink because it's a short test and temperatures didn't stabilize at higher values, and because you're stressing only CPU, while during games you are stressing both CPU and GPU, and the whole cooling system will show its limits. -
06-23-2020, 02:20 PMCannon.19
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06-23-2020, 02:36 PMandreacos92
I know, I think I have opened it up dozens of times, now I can remove the motherboard in less than 20 minutes :D
I'd give it a try, removing thermal pads. But it's your choice.
You can try with NBFC and a custom fan profile, to let them kick in with lower threshold. With NBFC, using 165 and 166 registers, you can also "unlock" the full speed of these fans, that should be about 4100-4150 rpm for CPU and 3800-3850 rpm for GPU fan. At these speeds, the noise is really high :p -
06-23-2020, 02:50 PMCannon.19
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06-23-2020, 09:06 PMandreacos92
Well, you should let your fans revving so high only if needed, so with temps at 80+ °C. With a good repasting, I assume your system will be quite cool and those speeds will be an extra, and not the usual speed.
Anyway, I use NBFC since years reaching that speeds in heavy gaming and fans are still good without signs of wear or strange noise :rolleyes: -
06-24-2020, 03:42 PMCannon.19
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06-24-2020, 07:19 PMandreacos92
Well, that hard to say just looking at the photo. I reported my experience of when I used pads and I had CPU temps issue (mostly on one specific core), and I suggested you to try with thermal paste only.
I know that is a tedious and expensive process, but I think only thing you can do now is to re-assemble it with thermal paste, at least on the little MOSFETs (ones cirled in red, that have a good contact).
Even in my case CPU contact looked good at the view, but I solved my problem in that way. -
06-24-2020, 10:25 PMCannon.19
I did some tests with the pads now and I think you're 100% right. Unfortunately, I ran out of paste , so I have to wait for a new one before trying it out.. Thank you though, should've listened to you from the start.
Guess I wanted to use the pads for something since I paid for them already. -
06-25-2020, 06:41 AMandreacos92
On the one hand, I know this is a bit tedious and it's not great to be stuck waiting for a new thermal paste, I have been through this.
On the other hand, I'm happy that you're on the way to solve your problem :) (and happy because I didn't let you disassemble it again for nothing :p)
Let us know how it ends up.
About the pads, mine are currently gathering dust. -
06-25-2020, 10:57 AMAtGrigorov
In the pictures, it looks like you applied the paste perfectly. Anyway, Asus are using only thermal paste on their last products and are considering transition to Liquid Metal.
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07-03-2020, 07:54 PMCannon.19
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07-04-2020, 12:21 PMandreacos92
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07-04-2020, 01:36 PMpndioderan out of ideas at this point honestly
The closet thermal paste I found for the chips installed on a factory laptop thermal paste was K5 Pro thermal paste. The density of thermal paste for CPU and GPU is to thin for chips.
When you installed thermal pads, it also increased the heat sink distance between the GPU and CPU. Did you use copper shims on CPU and GPU to compensate for that distance?
On laptops, because the clearance between the heat sink for the GPU and CPU is so tight K5 Pro thermal paste with its putty like density will fill in the gap for the chips. Twenty grams of K5 Pro thermal paste is more than enough for one laptop.
Use a syringe to apply the K5 Pro thermal paste (elevates a mess, not required) to heat sink for chips. Mix the K5 Pro for better density before applying or putting in syringe (not required). Just like salad dressing or paint, thermal paste separates somewhat (I could be wrong).
Attachment 85504 -
07-04-2020, 06:04 PMCannon.19
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07-04-2020, 06:33 PMCannon.19
Here's the video from before (before cleaning and repasting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_bbLF8ZQ8 -
07-04-2020, 09:27 PMandreacos92
Ok, now it's pretty clear.
In the second video, before cleaning and repasting, your CPU was throttling because of CPU temps. Intel CPU starts throttling at 93-94 °C, and this kind of throttling reduces clock speeds just a little bit, like we can see in the second video. CPU clocks stay in the 3.1 - 3.3 GHz range, instead of 3.4 GHz (this is the turbo clock with all 4 cores active).
In the first video, after repasting, CPU temps stay in the low 90s, that is quite high but not enough to start CPU thermal throttling.
Now your throttling is much more aggressive, falling down from 3.4 GHz turbo clock to 2.6 GHz that is the base clock for the 4720HQ: this is the thermal VR throttling. You can see it in HWiNFO stats, at IA: VR Thermal Alert, and in your screenshot it's marked as YES.
You should see also an entry under CPU [#0]: Intel Core i7-4720HQ: Enhanced called VR VCC Temperature (SVID). If you can't see it, just put under load your CPU and then restore original order in HWiNFO, that temp sensor doesn't work if it's cold and show 11 °C or less (grayed out).
Attachment 85508
If you will monitor that sensor when you play games, you will see it goes up to 96 °C and then your CPU will start to throttle at base clock (2.6 GHz).
The paradox is that before repasting your CPU was thermal throttling because of CPU temp, and that was a "soft" throttling, cutting down just 200-300 MHz to keep CPU in the low 90s. Now, after repasting, your CPU is a bit cooler, it doesn't reach throttling temperature, but this allows the voltage regulator to run hotter and trigger another throttling system, that is more aggressive than the previous one.
Bad news n° 1: repasting has worked, but maybe not enough. Low 90s are still quite high temps for stock clock and voltages, with a fresh applied thermal paste and a clean laptop.
What's the temperature inside your room? I'd try to use a custom fan profile, to let them spin a bit faster. High 80s, with a demanding CPU game like Battlefield is already a quite good result in the middle of the summer.
Bad news n° 2: CPU VRs are not cooled, they are abandoned to their heat. I put some little heatsink over them just to have a sort of passive cooling, they help but don't work miracles.
Also in this case, if the fans spin a little faster, they should create more airflow in the chassis, that "could" cool VRs a little better. But without heatsink and active cooling, this is a very minor effect.
Anyway it's strange that you hit VR thermal at 40-45 W of CPU power, IIRC even with stock speeds I experienced this at higher power consumption (at least 60 W); but if your room temp is around 28-30 °C this can be possible (I simply don't play games/use intensive apps in summer lol).
You can also try to disable HyperThreading, if you don't use your laptop for rendering/encoding, heavy multitasking. From my experience, many games (even recent ones) will run better with HT off, and CPU stay cooler, with less power draw.
If you can't disable it through Windows or CPU affinity, as last resort I would try to set a limit on CPU multiplier, something like 3.1 - 3.2 GHz through XTU. 200-300 MHz should not affect your gaming performance, but can be enough to not suffer from aggressive throttling, that can cause FPS drops or inconsistency. -
07-04-2020, 10:06 PMCannon.19
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07-05-2020, 06:13 AMandreacos92
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07-05-2020, 09:16 PMCannon.19
I tried running RealBench stress test on -50 mV and laptop tuned off after about 10-15 minutes (even though it survived 1 hour on Prime95 before that), so I increased it to -45 mV and it survived 1 hour on RealBench so I guess that's the limit. I also applied the cache undervolt afterwards, and surprisingly it survived at -100mV for 1 hour on RealBench (together with -45 mV on core). I noticed about 2 degree difference in Battlefield (90 degrees was the highest), just about enough to eliminate VR throttle. Then I set both fans to 100%, got about 3250 rpm for cpu fan and 3450 rpm for gpu fan. It decreased cpu and gpu temps additionally by about 4 degrees, so in the end CPU was running at ~86 and GPU at ~73. I used this NBFC profile, which I found HERE.
Btw, undervolting was done through Intel XTU, and after all that, I wanted to see how it would perform at max turbo and cache multiplier, at 50-60 Watts and 128 second power boost window, and there was still no throttling, and it never reached 90 degrees (with fans at 100% of course), but it wasn't stable and turned off after ~30 mintues, which probably means -40 mV should be stable at those speeds.
And those heatsinks look nice in your picture, good job ;) . How much difference did you notice after installing them? -
07-06-2020, 06:11 AMandreacos92
Ok for undervolting. Seems that you didn't get a very lucky chip, because usually Haswell can go a bit lower with undervolting, but -40 mV is better than nothing.
For CPU stability, it's a bit of test-fail-change-repeat process. Maybe -40 mV will be full stable, maybe it will crash next week while watching a video on YouTube and you'll have to bump up another +5 mV.
For cache, try using AIDA64 with CPU + Cache test (no FPU), or prime95 with some specific data size for cache (make sure to use latest prime95 version and disable AVX options in GUI). Anyway, CPU vCore affects temperature and power draw much more than Cache voltage, so don't go too low with cache, because then you won't be able to recognize if any crash or instability is due to vCore or vCache.
Anyway, VR temp is affected mainly by CPU Package Power (that is mainly affected by CPU vCore), if undervolting you see that Power goes down, it's still worth :D
Did you see Package Power is less than before while playing?
About fan profile, that profile is "wrong", because it uses 151 and 152 registers, that are Fan States, and not Fan Speed.
If you want to better control your speed, you have to use 165 and 166 registers in the NBFC profile.
The difference is that 151/152 registers can't max out fans speed, while 165/166 can (for "max out" I mean speed you have never seen until now :p)
And in register values 147-148 and 149-150 you can see and calculate actual fans speed (should be the same thing HWiNFO does with EC).
I know it seems a bit confusing, if you want you can read these (it's not that difficult, and can be interesting):
https://web.archive.org/web/20170725...en/threads/69/
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thre...ux32vd.705656/
https://web.archive.org/web/20170929...ven/threads/92
Anyway, if you max out fans you will see another nice temperatures reduction, but it's better to be alone in the room, and max out only if temps goes high (more than 80/85).
As I said, not so much difference, maybe 3 degrees. They, as passive coolers, don't affect much the final steady temperature, but more the time VRs take to reach final steady temperature, slowing down the heating rate.
With a fan pointed to them, they can do a much better job :rolleyes: -
07-06-2020, 07:42 PMCannon.19
Yeah, I think it went down by 1-2 watts on average, and VR temps maxed at 92 degrees, so 4 degrees less than before.
Really? Fans can go even faster than this? That's great :D. If I understood you correctly, I just need to change the register values in that profile to 165 or 166, and everything else can be left as it was? I'd like to try it out, even though this profile was enough to stop the throttling, but I just want to test the limits I guess :D. -
07-06-2020, 08:20 PMandreacos92
Well! Actually more than 4 degrees less than before, because before it maxed out at 96 °C due to throttling, but it could go higher if it wasn't limited ;)
Yes, you should be fine just changing register values: 166 for CPU and 165 for GPU.
I set EC poll rate to 300 ms too.
Then I suggest you to change thresholds according to your need. You can play a little with values and threshold, should be safe.
Quoting my post of 4.5 years ago (crying inside), CPU fan speed ranges should be:
Quote:
The percentage values have been set to obtain a change in fan state at every step, so I have:
0% = 0 rpm
50% = 2200-2300 rpm
65% = 2400-2500 rpm
75% = 2600-2700 rpm
85% = 2800-2900 rpm
91% = 3000-3100 rpm
95% = 3200-3300 rpm (at first it will go up to 3400 rpm then it reduces)
98% = 4000-4100 rpm
GPU fan speed values are a bit different IIRC, but you should find them pretty easily.
Last, set 0 as min fan speed and 100 as max for each fan as they should already be, but then in thresholds use 98% as max value instead of 100. It should be enough to trigger max speed for both fans, but I remember I had some strange behaviour with 100%.
Let me know :cool: -
07-08-2020, 02:12 AMCannon.19
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07-08-2020, 05:58 AMandreacos92
Wait, did you change Max Speed Value from 6 to 100 too? Otherwise of course they turn off, because the first speed threshold is at about 50, as I said in the previous post.
Try this, I use it since 4 years now: https://mega.nz/file/N0oFEbKY#7Y22iK...Lx1PZaT7XgoGjc -
07-08-2020, 01:02 PMCannon.19
Thank you, that one works great! Why is there no manual control slider though? With the other profile I could set the fans to 100% myself regardless of temperature. Would it be possible with this one too?
EDIT: Actually I can't do it with old profile now either, I messed something up didn't I :p -
07-08-2020, 01:18 PMandreacos92
Yep, it's possible from the main GUI of NBFC, once you click on Enabled
Attachment 85534
Make sure that NbfcService is running in Windows Services, I suggest you to set it on Automatic startup. This will start only the service, doesn't mean that NBFC is controlling your fans; if you disable it from the GUI it will stay off ;) -
07-09-2020, 01:35 AMCannon.19
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07-09-2020, 06:09 AMandreacos92
If you put them to 100% manually through the sliders, my suggestion is to set them to 98% and not 100%, as I said before and like my config file. The speed is the same (it's in the maximum range/state) but it should avoid strange behaviour like sudden shutdowns.
Yes, at maximum speed it looks like it's ready to take off :cool: Probably the best compromise would be a middle ground between last and second-last speeds, but there aren't. -
07-11-2020, 12:25 PMCannon.19
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07-12-2020, 04:31 AMandreacos92