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  1. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfg555 View Post
    Yea I already know about the whole TDP Intel/Motherboard agenda. Fishy stuff.
    Based on reviews I've seen both the 9900K and 9700K run twice as hot as the 2700X. More like Skylake-X

  2. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by gupsterg View Post
    Ahh, UEFI gimping . I saw this with X370 as well, that Crosshair had the most UEFI options and as you went down the tiers things disappeared.

    On OCN there is a thread where UEFI modding allows options to be gained, perhaps there is UEFI for X470-F Gaming, dunno.



    Please state model of CPU cooler, it really does seem as if this is the reason behind your excessive CPU temps.

    I use a lapped base ThermalRight Archon IB-E X2 with 2x TY-143 fans, room ambient for me is ~20-24C. I also have 2x TY143 as case intake fans, they use CPU header PWM so as CPU fans increase speed they do as well. I have 1x 120mm and 2x 90mm case exhaust fans.

    With PE: [Default] I see just over ~70C if I was loading CPU with P95.

    With PE: [Default], PBO: [Enabled] and BCLK tweak of 102.2, so single core is ~4.45GHz and multi averages ~4.15GHz in P95, I'll see max ~75C when loading with P95, depending on room ambient temp.

    Daily usage there is no chance I'd see the temps I see in P95 from what I have seen. I have used 2x 2700X on C6H/C7H. Below testing can get loud at moments, as stated before when CPU temp goes past 70C fans will go to 100% and the TY-143 can reach 2.5K RPM. The way my case is and where motherboard temp sensor is, it's usually inline or +2-3C higher than room temp. Below is ~8hrs P95 run and 1hr RealBench stress mode.

    Attachment 77046

    Attachment 77048
    Wow CH6/7 show more motherboard temps than X470-F. Would be nice if X470-F had those, especially VRM temperatures. I have to use an IR Laser and point at the chokes.

  3. #493
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    Plus one for VRM temps, and a proper diagnostics code led. These are sorely lacking on this board. IIRC when Buildzoid tested the similar X470 Prime, a VRM shutdown temp was present at some 120-125ºC, so at least we should have that safeguard even without readings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex0915 View Post
    Unfortunately I have no idea what heatsink this is, I bought it as a motherboard-cpu combo to put in my computer case. All I can tell is that it's a Cooler Master brand fan and heatsink and the fan is smaller than my 4x 120mm case fans. And it spins at up to 6000 RPM when the temps get high. It's not a stock AMD set up, it has four copper heat pipes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex0915 View Post
    It's Cooler Master so it could be the Hyper 212..
    There's the problem. IIRC all Hyper 212's support 12cm fans, the first observation should exclude them. Assuming a 92mm fan and 4 pipes, could it be a MasterAir Pro 3, Hyper D92, Hyper H410/411/412R...? 6000rpm on such fans seems unlikely (reading error maybe?), but the MAP3 has a 3000RPM fan. I don't want to sound rude, but you'd only need to go to the CM site and compare to pictures + fan size specs, check your receipt or place you bought them, instead of leaving for others to figure. When asking for help, it doesn't make sense to keep a conversation with so many pages about temps without pointing your exact cooling, and I'm also to blame because I assumed that you'd be running at least something better than the stock cooler.

    I wouldn't trust any of those for a 2700X even stock, they are rated max 95-100W. Even the stock Wraith Prism is rated for 125W. Your CPU can easily go way above that even if it's 105W rated (check the peak core+soc at 173W on the last page, even if it doesn't represent purely stock behavior). Their low mass also can't prevent short load spikes to increase temperature immediately. Anything rated at 150W would be so-so, so the best is to point at >=200W ratings to be comfortable if you run simulations for extended time.
    On air I'd be using at very least the likes of a NH-U14S/Archon on that CPU for good stock temps, for OC the same sort of 14cm tower but with dual fans like gupsterg's example (that has some really hardcore fans)/ or top dual fan on dual tower for OC (NH-D15 type). The new ARO-M14G could be a viable performance/price solution if your budget is lower, but don't expect top air results. Its huge size is still nice to keep small bursts in check (review, take notice that it's a 1700 at 1.475V, hence the very high temps on that p95 small FTTs test).

    If AMD tells you max 85ºC for that CPU, to be safe, assume perma damage can happen right or around there. Someone in the know might give you a more exact value. One of the reasons people don't like to sustain temperatures near that, it's because it can propagate and affect MB components in the long run, etc. So mid 70s max only while stress testing seem like a good target.

    Realbench is a benchmark/stress test that emulates work loads like foto editing and encoding (it's on the downloads bar link above). Come on, just google this small stuff.

    With a limited CPU cooler like those above (and assuming it's correctly installed), if you wish to avoid going into the high 70s or even 80's in daily loads for now, you could try to either limit speed on your Power Profile, or in your bios completely disable Performance Boost. Check the 125W rated stock cooler even, if on a 95W rated CoolerMaster. Trying a negative offset on your Vcore is also a good solution alone or combined to the above, your CPU might be capable of -0,05V at least.
    Last edited by AlleyViper; 11-18-2018 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlleyViper View Post
    Plus one for VRM temps, and a proper diagnostics code led. These are sorely lacking on this board. IIRC when Buildzoid tested the similar X470 Prime, a VRM shutdown temp was present at some 120-125ºC, so at least we should have that safeguard even without readings.





    There's the problem. IIRC all Hyper 212's support 12cm fans, the first observation should exclude them. Assuming a 92mm fan and 4 pipes, could it be a MasterAir Pro 3, Hyper D92, Hyper H410/411/412R...? 6000rpm on such fans seems unlikely (reading error maybe?), but the MAP3 has a 3000RPM fan. I don't want to sound rude, but you'd only need to go to the CM site and compare to pictures + fan size specs, check your receipt or place you bought them, instead of leaving for others to figure. When asking for help, it doesn't make sense to keep a conversation with so many pages about temps without pointing your exact cooling, and I'm also to blame because I assumed that you'd be running at least something better than the stock cooler.

    I wouldn't trust any of those for a 2700X even stock, they are rated max 95-100W. Even the stock Wraith Prism is rated for 125W. Your CPU can easily go way above that even if it's 105W rated (check the peak core+soc at 173W on the last page, even if it doesn't represent purely stock behavior). Their low mass also can't prevent short load spikes to increase temperature immediately. Anything rated at 150W would be so-so, so the best is to point at >=200W ratings to be comfortable if you run simulations for extended time.
    On air I'd be using at very least the likes of a NH-U14S/Archon on that CPU for good stock temps, for OC the same sort of 14cm tower but with dual fans like gupsterg's example (that has some really hardcore fans)/ or top dual fan on dual tower for OC (NH-D15 type). The new ARO-M14G could be a viable performance/price solution if your budget is lower, but don't expect top air results. Its huge size is still nice to keep small bursts in check (review, take notice that it's a 1700 at 1.475V, hence the very high temps on that p95 small FTTs test).

    If AMD tells you max 85ºC for that CPU, to be safe, assume perma damage can happen right or around there. Someone in the know might give you a more exact value. One of the reasons people don't like to sustain temperatures near that, it's because it can propagate and affect MB components in the long run, etc. So mid 70s max only while stress testing seem like a good target.

    Realbench is a benchmark/stress test that emulates work loads like foto editing and encoding (it's on the downloads bar link above). Come on, just google this small stuff.

    With a limited CPU cooler like those above (and assuming it's correctly installed), if you wish to avoid going into the high 70s or even 80's in daily loads for now, you could try to either limit speed on your Power Profile, or in your bios completely disable Performance Boost. Check the 125W rated stock cooler even, if on a 95W rated CoolerMaster. Trying a negative offset on your Vcore is also a good solution alone or combined to the above, your CPU might be capable of -0,05V at least.
    It better be a good cooler I spent $70 extra on it, it was advertised as an "ultra high performance" cooler and the best air cooling system they had. I would have spent more money to go with water cooling, but I'm rather nervous about it even if it's "maintenance free" because I've never water cooled before. I asked them about the stock cooler and they said since they buy them in bulk they dont get the stock cooler, but that this was much better than that.

    I was only getting the 70C nonsense when my room was hot and there hasn't been any of that since I cut back on heating. I lowered the alarm threshold to 70C to make sure if it happens again I'll know it. I tried to find it on the Cooler Master website this morning but it doesn't look like any of the ones on there, but I'll keep looking. I'm going to contact the people I bought it from on Monday when they open for more information on it. My temps have been staying in the low 40s-low 50s range.

    Strangely the 3D sims dont affect the CPU temps at all, I keep those running 16 hours a day, the temp spikes come during virus scanning or when I first open a browser. It didn't happen at all today and I attribute that to a lower room temp. But if these short term temp spikes do happen (they last only a few seconds) can even that cause damage? And at what temp can damage be caused for a short spike in temp vs prolonged? Prolonged I've never had temps higher than the 60s (but sometimes high 60s, like 68 or 69C), I've never had prolonged temps of 70C or above. Should I still lower my voltage and do all the stuff you mentioned? I had even set up a silent fan profile but now I'm wondering if I should change that to something that would keep the cpu cooler- but like I said, I've never had prolonged temps of 70C or above, it only happens in very short spikes, and even then only when my room is hot (near 30C).

    I bought the cpu-motherboard combo with the cpu cooler and fan on it from Portatech so I'll have to check back with them on Monday about the cooler. The 6000 RPM reading for the fan came up on HWMonitor- is there a program I can use for fan RPMs for my case fans and cpu fan? I thought the 6000 reading was accurate because the fan was extremely loud when that happened so I set the silent fan profile and now the highest it ever gets is 3000 rpm which is audible but not very loud for me (I used to run 3x 80mm Vantec Tornado fans with a Vantec fan controller so I know what loud is lol) and normally the cpu fan is at under 2000 rpm and the case fans are running at 1000 rpm but capable of 2200 rpm and 95 cfm each. Can I put a 120mm fan on this cooler even if it takes 100mm fans? Maybe with an adapter? I think it's a 100mmx50mm cooler but not sure on that- I need to check with Portatech on Monday.
    Last edited by Alex0915; 11-18-2018 at 05:33 AM.

  5. #495
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    If this motherboard doesn't report VRM temps what are all these different temp readings I see in HWiNFO and HWMonitor, there are 4 different ones and there is one that it's only slightly less than the CPU temp.

  6. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlleyViper View Post
    @gupsterg for what Alex0915 says, I also really doubt about the capability of his CPU cooler. I don't remember any high performing tower with only 4 heatpipes, except the original Silver Arrow/IFX, so I'd guess an entry 12cm tower (Hyper 212, True Spirit...) or at best the older NH-U12P, all with short legs for a 2700X under avx2.
    I find my TRUE Black (the denser Rev.A 790g version), kryonaut, with 2 high pressure 1850rpm Gentle Typhoons at the limit for a 2600X (max 72º-73º on 8h of latest prime95, PE2 and -0,1V offset). It might perform roughly near a Archon with only one regular TY-141/147 fan at max speed, if not a tad better.
    TRUE's are sound I have one still .

    The Archon I luv the most, as it allows me easy access to all four dimm slots . I initially bought an Archon SB-E X2 off ebay, ~£15 delivered. The previous owner had thought one of TY-141 was faulty, turned out to be just Y cable had lose connection .

    As board manufacturers only have to adhere to "keep out zone" around socket they can move socket position around on board. I found with the C6H I needed the IB-E with offset base, so HSF was not right up against GPU back plate when using upper most PCI-E slot. Again I was lucky to sell the SB-E for same price as I purchased a IB-E.

    The Archon besides being good on Ryzen is what I used with my i5 4690K @ 4.9GHz daily OC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex0915 View Post
    It's Cooler Master so it could be the Hyper 212. I guess I'll have to keep the a/c on in the computer room because that is a surefire way to reduce CPU temps lol. The a/c faces the computer and I notice an immediate 20C drop in temps when I turn it on. I just have to keep room temps around 25C.

    At what temperatures does part longevity become shortened would you say? Anything above 70C? Today it's nice and cool in my room so no warnings lol. I'm thinking of lowering voltage like you wrote in your above post to lower temps but dont know if thats necessary if I can keep the temps under 70C. Do lower voltage spikes make the parts last longer?

    It sounds like you dont favor Auto settings, but is setting memory speed to Auto a good setting to maximize stability and keep temps manageable? There is no "default" memory setting, unless it's the specifically rated speed for the memory.
    I'd look into upgrading your cooler for sure. Besides enhancing longevity the lowered temps will most probably translate into higher peak/averaged CPU frequencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfg555 View Post
    Wow CH6/7 show more motherboard temps than X470-F. Would be nice if X470-F had those, especially VRM temperatures. I have to use an IR Laser and point at the chokes.
    Didn't know X470-F doesn't show VRM temps. Perhaps you guys need to contact Martin Malik, author of HWINFO. It maybe the reading is not exposed. If you provide debug files, he can usually see if there is a sensor that HWINFO is picking up but not shown. Best route is his own forum. He's really swift and great at supporting his app , besides being open to user suggestions on improving the app for sensors shown.

    The C6H uses a diode close to VRM, usually an IR gun read back of PCB/close to area on front is similar from what I have seen. The C6E/ZE/C7H have mosfets with have internal temp probe, IR3555M. These are the sweetest mosfets IMO.

    The dimm temps are from SPD on the G.Skill set. It's not IC temp, but basically SPD soaking heat from PCB of dimms and giving an idea of IC temp IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex0915 View Post
    By the way, are Ryzen Timing Checker and Real Bench worth getting? Oh nevermind I already have Ryzen Timing Checker, I just haven't used it yet. What is Real Bench?
    RealBench uses some open source apps to load rig. You can benchmark and stress test with it. The stress test is not as heavy as other applications but is still sound to use. As I subscribe to always trying many differing apps on a setup, to see what makes it fall over quick, I count no application great than another. Each has it's place to load system in differing way to highlight a weakness. I usually then tune profile to be sound in that test, then the other tests will fall in line or profile needs minimal tweaks to be stable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex0915 View Post
    If this motherboard doesn't report VRM temps what are all these different temp readings I see in HWiNFO and HWMonitor, there are 4 different ones and there is one that it's only slightly less than the CPU temp.
    Get in touch with Martin .
    Last edited by gupsterg; 11-18-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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  7. #497
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    @Alex0915 OT: For the 2700X combos, the highest air cooler that is currently pictured on that seller's page it's just a previous gen ryzen stock Wraith Max AMD cooler at $56 + 2 fans, so yours isn't showing for now.
    For the Intel combos, the pictured cooler with a blue fan at $56 + 2 fans is just a DeepCool GAMMAXX 200T, which is a very poor solution to bundle with a 9700K (It's sold currently for $12 on newegg lol). If that picture corresponds to what they're selling and list as a "120mm x 50mm Quad Copper Heatpipe" "Ultra High Performance Cooling-Fan", that's a bit of a stretch. It's only a very low end 2 heatpipe, about 10cm width tower type cooler with an oversized 1300rpm 12cm fan (w/ 92mm fixation). I hope yours wasn't the same kind of deal.
    If they sell DeepCool stuff, you might check their page to see if you'll find your cooler there. Even the NH-U14S + (NM-AM4-UxS AM4 mounting kit) I suggested could be had for about $75 new.

    Again, those previous suggestions were to forcefully keep the CPU under 70ºC in your daily work loads if you were still hitting 75-80ºC like a few pages back. If you don't, you might keep them in mind for hotter days. Please inform us what's your cooler when you have some info on it, even if at this point I doubt it'll be good news. An upgrade should give you better temps, slightly better clocks, less noise, as you've already read. 3000rpm is still terribly noisy on a small fan.

    @gupsterg the IB-E is really nice, its a shame that TR is now almost out of the high end fight after years of innovation. My TRUE combo is the same I got for a 4.08GHz PhIIx4 OC long ago (started with S-Flex Gs, AP-15s came later), which still lives under another older TRUE+E-loop B12-P combo. With new a AM4 retention it seemed capable for a 2600X in push-pull so I refrained to go after a better 14cm tower. For a 2700X I wouldn't be keeping it, of course.
    Being an old 07' design, at first I was afraid the second fan would hit the terrible X470-F plastic I/O cover, but even with the extra plastic frame/retainers on fans I didn't have to offset them up. Nor the front fan, were flare X can fit under them easily. The original clips don't even offer the same possibility to move fans up. Being a centered design and 13,2cm wide, It rests at maybe 1cm from the card's backplate next to it.

    For anyone wondering, to remove the X470-F I/O cover for VRM better thermals, IIRC it's only required to remove 2 screws bellow and unplug the led ribbon.
    Last edited by AlleyViper; 11-18-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  8. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlleyViper View Post
    @Alex0915 OT: For the 2700X combos, the highest air cooler that is currently pictured on that seller's page it's just a previous gen ryzen stock Wraith Max AMD cooler at $56 + 2 fans, so yours isn't showing for now.
    For the Intel combos, the pictured cooler with a blue fan at $56 + 2 fans is just a DeepCool GAMMAXX 200T, which is a very poor solution to bundle with a 9700K (It's sold currently for $12 on newegg lol). If that picture corresponds to what they're selling and list as a "120mm x 50mm Quad Copper Heatpipe" "Ultra High Performance Cooling-Fan", that's a bit of a stretch. It's only a very low end 2 heatpipe, about 10cm width tower type cooler with an oversized 1300rpm 12cm fan (w/ 92mm fixation). I hope yours wasn't the same kind of deal.
    If they sell DeepCool stuff, you might check their page to see if you'll find your cooler there. Even the NH-U14S + (NM-AM4-UxS AM4 mounting kit) I suggested could be had for about $75 new.

    Again, those previous suggestions were to forcefully keep the CPU under 70ºC in your daily work loads if you were still hitting 75-80ºC like a few pages back. If you don't, you might keep them in mind for hotter days. Please inform us what's your cooler when you have some info on it, even if at this point I doubt it'll be good news. An upgrade should give you better temps, slightly better clocks, less noise, as you've already read. 3000rpm is still terribly noisy on a small fan.

    @gupsterg the IB-E is really nice, its a shame that TR is now almost out of the high end fight after years of innovation. My TRUE combo is the same I got for a 4.08GHz PhIIx4 OC long ago (started with S-Flex Gs, AP-15s came later), which still lives under another older TRUE+E-loop B12-P combo. With new a AM4 retention it seemed capable for a 2600X in push-pull so I refrained to go after a better 14cm tower. For a 2700X I wouldn't be keeping it, of course.
    Being an old 07' design, at first I was afraid the second fan would hit the terrible X470-F plastic I/O cover, but even with the extra plastic frame/retainers on fans I didn't have to offset them up. Nor the front fan, were flare X can fit under them easily. The original clips don't even offer the same possibility to move fans up. Being a centered design and 13,2cm wide, It rests at maybe 1cm from the card's backplate next to it.

    For anyone wondering, to remove the X470-F I/O cover for VRM better thermals, IIRC it's only required to remove 2 screws bellow and unplug the led ribbon.
    Wow you are a genius, I had no idea what models those coolers are and you are correct they changed it from the one that I bought although I did get the 2x 120mm fans which were Thermaltake models and I added 4 more case fans which are Cooler Master 95cfm fans. Question, based on the selections they have on there for their top end air coolers for both the Ryzen 2700x and Core 7 9700k (they removed the Core 9 9900k for some reason), which of those air coolers is better, the Ryzen one or the Intel one? Is the Wraith one better than the Deepcool one? Mine isn't definitely either of those, as it says Cooler Master on the fan and it's black, but there is no model number on it. I also got the Raidmax case listed further down in the selections.

    I remember buildzoid said something about removing those covers you mentioned, Asus said they are there for "protection."

    That company also gave me a different power supply than what I wanted. I ordered an 850W Antec HCG which is actually a rebranded Seasonic and I got an 850W Thermaltake Smart Series instead- difference being this one doesn't have overheat protection or surge-inrush protection, but fortunately the latter is not an issue because I also bought a Cyberpower 1000VA PFCLCD UPS. We get a lot of brown outs here and I really need that.

  9. #499
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    I might do all those things you suggested just as a precaution. So basically, as long as my sustained temps are under 70C I will maximize longevity, is that right? And short spikes to 75C or even 80C for a few seconds dont take away from that?

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    Those are terrible business practices, as they even don't list or even give what you're buying.
    As for which is better as a $56 upgrade? None, really, the Intel's DeepCool is $12 100W max rated trash. It doesn't make sense to spend $56 on a stock AMD Wraith Max cooler (up to 125W), similar in performance to the one that comes with a boxed 2700x (Wraith Prism).
    After IDing your current cooler just to be sure it's really underspec and holding you back, set a budget for a good cooler and buy it anywhere else. Many other users can give your their better recommendations, the same way I've given you a few posts back. Thermalright's ARO-M14G seems a good option if you must go cheap ($45), or something in the likes of a Noctua NH-U14S + NM-AM4-UxS (this AM4 retention is bought separately) if you can afford better (~$75). Both are >220W rated, and should give you peace of mind.

    I don't like to say "sustained at 70º is fine along with short bursts of 75-80ºC", specially if those short burst are light stuff like opening a program. Because those short bursts shouldn't be even heating up as much as a proper sustained full load. It just happens that your sustained loads might not be stressing your cpu as much as possible. So when that finally happens, temps might go real high. Thats why it's hard to give a blank check with that statement. After all these posts, I feel I haven't anything else to add on this matter. Just get proper cooling and be done with it, instead of capping your CPU further.

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