Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26
  1. #1
    Super Moderator Array
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Reputation
    109
    Posts
    839

    MCE explanations and others

    Miniatura de Adjuntos Miniatura de Adjuntos fflow.jpg  

    voltage_flow_chart.jpg  

    cflow.jpg  

    Last edited by Shamino; 05-14-2021 at 06:56 AM.

  2. #2
    ROG Guru: Yellow Belt Array Feklar PC Specs
    Feklar PC Specs
    MotherboardAsus Maximus Z690 Apex
    Processori9 12900k
    Memory (part number)G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5 6000 F5-6000U4040E16GX2-TZ5RK
    Graphics Card #1EVGA GeForce RTX 3090 Ti FTW3 ULTRA w/ Ek Waterblock
    MonitorLG38gl950g
    Storage #1Samsung 870 Evo 2TB
    Storage #2850 Evo 1TB and 2TB
    CPU CoolerCustom Water Cooling
    CaseFractal Meshify 2 XL
    Power SupplyEVGA SuperNOVA 1000 T2
    Keyboard Logitech G513 Carbon
    Mouse Logitech G502 Hero
    Headset Audio Technica ath-msr7b
    Headset/Speakers Topping D70s DAC and Topping A90 Headphone Amp
    OS Windows 10 Professional
    Accessory #1 Mo-Ra 3 Pro 4x180 Radiator
    Accessory #2 Koolance Fittings and QDC's
    Accessory #3 EK Velocity 2 CPU block w/EK Vector GPU block
    Feklar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Reputation
    11
    Posts
    158

    This should be sticky'd.

    i9 12900k + Asus Maximus Z690 Apex + EVGA RTX 3090 Ti FTW3 ULTRA
    G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5 6000l XMP 3.0 Desktop Memory Model F5-6000U4040E16GX2-TZ5RK+ Samsung 870 Pro SSD, EVO 1TB, EVO 2TB
    EVGA SuperNOVA 1000 T2 Power Supply + Fractal Meshify 2 XL case
    Ek Velocity 2 CPU block, Ek GPU block
    Koolance Fittings and QDC's + Mo-Ra 3 Pro 4x180 Radiator
    LG 38GL950G Monitor +
    Windows 10 Pro

  3. #3
    ROG Guru: Grand Master Array Arne Saknussemm PC Specs
    Arne Saknussemm PC Specs
    Laptop (Model)Laptop?...No way! (Model?...Jun Amaki...yes way!)
    MotherboardROG ZENITH II EXTREME
    ProcessorTHREADRIPPER 3960X
    Memory (part number)TXBD48G4000HC18FBK
    Graphics Card #1GTX Titan X
    Graphics Card #2SLI is dead to me
    Graphics Card #3Tri SLI is even dead to Nvidia
    Graphics Card #4Quad SLI is dead to everybody especially my credit card
    Sound CardXonar Essence STX
    MonitorASUS ROG Swift PG279Q
    Storage #1Samsung 970/960/950 PRO
    Storage #22x OCZ VERTEX 3/2x WD Caviar Black 500GB / 2x WD RED 2TB/Samsung 1TBSSDs
    CPU CoolerCustom Loop: Dual D5s, Dual Alphacool Monsta 480s, XSPC Raystorm Neo TR4, EK TitanX WaterBlock
    CaseNope!...Dimastech Easy XL...let it all hang out man!
    Power SupplySeasonic 1000 Platinum
    Keyboard Corsair Strafe MK2 ROG Claymore... or Fender Rhodes Electric Piano (MKI 73)
    Mouse Corsair M65Pro or Speedy Gonzalez...not Mickey...don't do Disney!
    Headset ...firmly on neck
    Mouse Pad Mouse don't got his own pad man...lives with me
    Headset/Speakers Edifier Spinnaker...or you mean the speakers in my head...man too many voices to name them all
    OS Win XP, 7, 8, 8.1 and Windows 10 Spyware Edition
    Network Router56k modem
    Accessory #1 Umm...nice tie?
    Accessory #2 Err...belt?
    Accessory #3 3 accessories?! I'm not a girl!!
    Arne Saknussemm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Reputation
    509
    Posts
    13,689

    ROG straining the camel right there!

  4. #4
    ROG Guru: Grand Master Array HiVizMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Reputation
    358
    Posts
    25,742

    Thank you Shammy
    To help us help you - please provide as much information about your system and the problem as possible.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Array
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Reputation
    109
    Posts
    839

    This also raises the question, is 'stock performance' absolute in today's context? with TVB and XFR on AMD, frequency depending on power and power on temps, tests carried out on an air cooler will differ from tests carried out on custom water, without even bringing in the question of what ambient temp to test at. One can only test with a typical cooler, which seems to be an AIO on these platforms.

  6. #6
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array mdzcpa PC Specs
    mdzcpa PC Specs
    MotherboardCrosshair VIII Dark Hero
    Processor5900X 4.6ghz All core 1.3V, 5ghz single DOC
    Memory (part number)Gskill NEO 3600 CAS 14 32GB (4x8)
    Graphics Card #1ROG Strix RTX 3080
    Sound CardOn Board
    MonitorROG PG348Q
    Storage #1Samsung 980 Pro M.2 512GB for OS & APPS
    Storage #2Samsung 980 Pro M.2 1TB for GAMES
    CPU CoolerROG Ryujin 360
    CasePhanteks 500A Mesh
    Power SupplySeasonic Prime 1000W Titanium
    Keyboard Corsair K70 LUX RGB
    Mouse Corsair M65 RGB
    Headset Corsaur Virtuoso
    Mouse Pad Corsair MM300 Wide Desk Mat
    OS WIN 10 Pro
    Network RouterLinksys VELOP
    Accessory #1 ROG 751JY Laptop for Moobile Gaming
    Accessory #2 Koolance EXC-800 Chiller
    Accessory #3 25+ years of overclocking

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Reputation
    80
    Posts
    1,003

    This is a great point. Reviewers and users need to be very aware of these technologies in the current CPUs and supporting boards. They add an almost infinite number of possible "stock" or "baseline" performance norms. These variables will need to be dealt with when making comparisons. Reviewers will need to be very detailed if they plan on presenting any results that are "apples to apple."

    One thing I DO very much like about TVB implementation on the new Asus boards is the rewards built into power consumption and performance through smart component /cooling selection. Without even overclocking, performance and efficiency can be dynamically gained (or lost) based on cooling choices.

    This is a great thread Shamino. It draws attention to the fact that new motherboards need to be reviewed in a entirely new light. Routine comparisons based on the old "tried and true" review methods need to be changed.... and in some cases farily drastically.

    I must say that after getting my Hero XI up and running, and having some time to really work with it, it has become clear there is a lot more going on than looking only at VRM design, VRM temps and Vdroop measurements at associated voltages and clock speeds. I've achieved some pretty stellar performance at surprisingly low voltages and its interesting to see those parameters change dynamically by adjusting cooling effectiveness. Asus appears to have done a very nice implementation of MCE (their version of it) and TVB.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shamino View Post
    This also raises the question, is 'stock performance' absolute in today's context? with TVB and XFR on AMD, frequency depending on power and power on temps, tests carried out on an air cooler will differ from tests carried out on custom water, without even bringing in the question of what ambient temp to test at. One can only test with a typical cooler, which seems to be an AIO on these platforms.

  7. #7
    ROG Member Array
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Reputation
    10
    Posts
    20

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamino View Post
    MCE
    If you played with Cache OC, you see that it is very intolerant of any undershoots. Straightaway you would hardlock or BSOD. You can even test it at default. Since it shares the same rail as core, set core ratio to something really low like 40x. Set min and max cache ratio to 43x and set a manual voltage like 1.15v. Run a heavy load like prime 95 non AVX. Dynamically slowly reduce the voltage 5mv at a time. You will find the VMIN this way. Once you find the VMIN under continuous load, stop prime95. If it doesn’t hang, run it again, back and forth between running and stopping. Even try booting straight from bios with that VMIN. You will see that this VMIN requires a guardband for transient load changes, meaning you will need 5mv+++ more. You will observe bigger guardbands needed at higher cache. Obviously the better the transient response, the guardband requirement is smaller.
    How do you adjust voltages or other BIOS settings without rebooting? It sounds like you have a tool to click and change it in Windows.

  8. #8
    ROG Enthusiast Array
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Reputation
    10
    Posts
    46

    AVX-1 guardband testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck100 View Post
    How do you adjust voltages or other BIOS settings without rebooting? It sounds like you have a tool to click and change it in Windows.
    The tool is called Intel XTU, "Intel Extreme Tuning Utility" and can be downloaded from Intel's website.
    ---

    And @Shamino, thanks for this very informative post! The AVX-offset issue is exactly what I have stumbled across and what I couldn't understand. Now it all makes sense and it got me curious, so I did some testing myself. Here are the results.

    HW: Z390 Strix-F (SiC639 powerstages, like Hero/Formula/Code), BIOS 0805, i7-9700K
    Settings: bclk 101.3, core x51, cache x47, 500KHz VRM Switching Freq, Adaptive Voltage +0.001 offset, Best-Case setting (anything else relevant?)
    Measurements: Multimeter across VRM output bulk caps. (Hope that's ok??)
    Load: Prime 26.6 Small FFTs, 8 threads, CPU Package 78°C - 84°C max, depending on voltages tested.
    Voltages are read under full Prime load, lowest setting where Prime wouldn't complain/crash/bsod/whatever is shown.

    LLC5
    constant multiplier
    BIOS 1.260V, Measured 1.266V, Power 158W (HWInfo)
    AVX-1 (XTU), trying to trigger crash
    BIOS 1.300V, Measured 1.306V, Power 167W (HWInfo)
    --> Guardband 40mV

    LLC4
    constant multiplier
    BIOS 1.300V, Measured 1.268V, Power 163W (HWInfo)
    AVX-1 (XTU), trying to trigger crash
    BIOS 1.315V, Measured 1.281V, Power 169W (HWInfo)
    --> Guardband 13mV (!)


    Conclusions:
    - The difference between LLC4 and LLC5 is quite significant. Much bigger than a briefly tested LLC5 vs. LLC6.
    - LLC5 still overvolts slightly under load, which is not reflected in HWInfo-readings at all. LLC4 and LLC5 both appear to undervolt, but, according to my measurements, this only holds true for LLC4. (LLC6 is actually shown correctly as overvolting.)
    - VRM switching frequency does indeed seem to help, at least in my case, and I generally don't understand why Asus keeps sticking to a default of 300KHz on these simpler boards. I've also measured VRM temps (at backside of the board) and the difference is really within margin of error for my measuring equipment, maybe 1-2°C. I see no reason not to just set 500 and forget about it. By the way, these SiC639 powerstages are actually high-speed ones (up to 1.5 MHz) and the datasheet doesn't even mention values as low as 300KHz, starting at 500KHz for their charts...
    - I found the best way to trigger a guardband-violation is setting AVX offset 1, then, during Prime load, just repeatedly open Win 10 Startmenu and Settings dialog, just wildly clicking through the different subpages of Settings, especially the Apps page. It's a sure and quick crash/BSOD for the Prime load if voltage is too low. For me, switching multipliers or decreasing boost limits didn't trigger crashes at all.
    - Most (all?) of these so-called overclocking tutorials/videos fail to mention this topic at all. They just blindly set an AVX offset, because, you know, everyone knows AVX isn't stable at the same freq/voltages, lol.
    - Finally, for overclocks needing AVX-offset I'm going to use LLC4 from now on, without offset probably still LLC5.

    Open Questions:
    - In what significance is the guardband dependant on the absolute voltage? I mean, would a test at x45 bclk 100 with much lower voltages yield a different result?
    - It's a bit strange that my LLC4 AVX-1 setting measures less voltage, yet is using more power according to HWInfo ?
    - I've tried testing 2 instances of Prime, 26.6 and 29.6 AVX in parallel, but as soon as AVX threads are present, the offset is suddenly applied to all cores. Why? Is that intended behaviour?? It's strange, because with the Startmenu/Settings test this doesn't happen. You can clearly spot single cores running at -1 in HWInfo, but the other cores keep running the higher multiplier for the Prime load just fine... (?)
    - Another way of dealing with this whole affair might be to just forget about AVX-offset and employ appropriate max power limits. You know, to keep AVX loads in check while still maintaining max boost clocks for normal load. Something worth investigating further.
    - I'm now very curious how other boards would perform in a test like this. Most interested in the Z390 Gene with its IR3555 powerstages, but also the Gigabyte boards with their doubler-equipped "bigger" VRM. Anyone got some data?
    - Back to the Gene, IR3555. Is the body-breaking feature of these powerstages actually implemented? I'd expect this to help in scenarios like these, no?

    Thanks for reading, discussion welcome!
    Last edited by vvoid; 03-06-2019 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #9
    ROG Member Array
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Reputation
    10
    Posts
    20

    Quote Originally Posted by vvoid View Post
    The tool is called Intel XTU, "Intel Extreme Tuning Utility" and can be downloaded from Intel's website.)
    I have the Asus version of Intel XTU that comes with the Maximus XI Hero. It doesn't have the ability to change voltages. It can only change multipliers, power limits, and a few other things. But no voltages. I wonder did Asus gimp this version of XTU, or does my motherboard not support voltage control from windows?

    Quote Originally Posted by vvoid View Post
    I've tried testing 2 instances of Prime, 26.6 and 29.6 AVX in parallel, but as soon as AVX threads are present, the offset is suddenly applied to all cores. Why?
    Yes, this is how all the dynamic clocks work. At any given instant in time, all the cores must run at the same multiplier. It can sometimes look otherwise in HWinfo, but that's because it's not actually measuring all the core multipliers at the same instant of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by vvoid View Post
    Another way of dealing with this whole affair might be to just forget about AVX-offset and employ appropriate max power limits. You know, to keep AVX loads in check while still maintaining max boost clocks for normal load. Something worth investigating further.
    This is exactly what I've chosen to do. Keep AVX offset at 0 and set PL1/PL2 to ensure I don't exceed 80C under any sustained or transient load. That means I'll downclock only under extreme loads like P95 with AVX, while games that use AVX don't pull nearly enough power to hit the power limits. This works nicely in combination with offset or adaptive voltage, as you'll also get a VID and Vcore reduction when downclocking (which helps bring you back under the power limit).

  10. #10
    ROG Enthusiast Array
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Reputation
    10
    Posts
    46

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck100 View Post
    I have the Asus version of Intel XTU that comes with the Maximus XI Hero.
    Well, I guess just use Intel's own version then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luck100 View Post
    Yes, this is how all the dynamic clocks work. At any given instant in time, all the cores must run at the same multiplier. It can sometimes look otherwise in HWinfo, but that's because it's not actually measuring all the core multipliers at the same instant of time.
    Ahh ok, thanks, forgot about that.

    What exact settings are you running on the Hero to achieve the balance of AVX/non-AVX?

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •