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  1. #41
    Shut Up Stupid! Array DaemonCantor's Avatar
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    True Apple has made a good amount of Profit from the Think Outside of the Box Marketing and you can't blame them for it in truth although you can Whine and Complain about it all you like but in the beginning Apple has carried out a Single Plan and that was to bring Main Stream Computing to the Masses! and you can thank your what ever for it because like my first computer store Microsoft and Intel were making Computers for Businesses only and using Strong Arm Tactics to keep prices high and shut out all Competition so that the average Joe couldn't even begin to look at having one much less a College Student.

    Now Fast Forward to today....Apple is still doing the same thing and yes they are creating Designer Products tailored to the Average Joe but also the Average Jane and these are a big part of their revenues and are called i-what the F-ever but nobody even looks at the rest of the lines... I suggest that all Apple Haters live with one for 6 months and them make a judgement because I have used them for many years...Hell My wife even prefers an iMac over her next choice HP and as she puts it the thing is Easy to Use and Understand plus it doesn't break like her Windows Machine. There is a lot of Tech behind making that a reality and any Linux Fan can understand the ease of which Portable Software can enhance your experience because the Mac OS is Linux with a Fancy UI like Gnome called Aqua and the App layer is called Carbon. Yes I even Program with the Mac because it's a HELL OF A LOT Easier plus it does what no other can do anymore called Cross Platform Compile, for those that don't know what that means is I can write a program and make it run on any other computer out there from the Mac and also test it as well right on the Mac. The last system that could Cross Platform Compile was the Atari Jaguar which basically was a PowerMAC G4.

    Zygo, I understand what you were trying to point out but that wasn't totally true ether because the only Mac Pro's(Which are the ones that run the Xeon CPU's) that have ECC Memory from the Factory are the Mac Pro Servers which are the Best Work Stations out there and also considered the best Servers if you can afford them. The rest of the Lines use Standard Every Day DDR3's just like all of the Windows Systems here and even the Mac Pro Server can be opted with Non-ECC DDR3 but Never by Memory and a lot of other upgrades from Apple because a Fully Decked out Mac Pro Server with all Bells and Whistles will run you around $16000USD. By the Base and Upgrade it yourself for FAR cheaper. The only upgrade you should buy with your Mac is the CPU Upgrade because you can't change that easy being as their Water Cooled and sealed as a unit that plugs into a special socket.

    Yes Zygo the PowerPC Chips are an EXCELLENT example of a RISC CPU and caused a Major Stir in the Eco System for a few years but when Apple dumped them due to Pricing most people lost touch. Me personally I'm waiting for the Optical CPU's to come from SUN Systems...Can you imagine how much more Power and Speed you'll get from a CPU that runs on Light!

  2. #42
    No Longer Works at ASUS Array
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zygomorphic View Post
    That is true, but the problem is with single-threaded applications. There are bunches of them that cannot be easily parallelized. Take, for instance, formatting a document. Everything depends on everything above it, so multi-threading the actual rendering isn't easy. I program for fun, and trying to split up all but the most trivial algorithms is an exercise in frustration. Sure, you can split up a ray-tracer/render-farm, but how about an MP3 encoder?

    @DC, I am aware of that, look at the RAM (ECC) and CPU (Xeon [to support that ECC RAM]). I wasn't that explicit/didn't know that much about RISC, but I was alluding to some of that when I said that it is better optimized. The pipeline is a lot shorter, though Intel has done work to get multi-instructions spread out to different parts of the chip, which helps a good deal.
    Right, and in such a situation a SMP setup would be better than multi-core setup. It just seems like a lot of people here aren't quite understanding the concept of multiple CPUs as opposed to multiple cores. Maybe because outside of workstations and servers, it's very uncommon to find SMP setups. So take like an old Pentium 3 which is from before HT and dual core as an example. The idea would be to have two (or more) Pentium 3 CPUs in one system. Operating almost exactly the same as a dual core CPU of today, except that each CPU would have its own dedicated set of inputs and outputs, instead of jockeying for the same set of shared inputs you have on multi-core CPUs. Unless something has changed since I last looked at it, if you have two cores finishing work at the exact same time, one will have to wait for its data to be offloaded before the second core can offload its data. Now I know there's probably a lot of logic built into multi-core CPUs to try and prevent this as much as possible, but where it's merely unlikely with multi-core, it's impossible with multi-CPU.

    Of course one of the other ideas I kind of like, though it would have certain hurdles to overcome I would imagine. There was a CPU company called Transmetta a while back, and they created a programmable CPU. Basically you could program it to use any CPU instruction set. So one day it might act as x86, and the next day you have it doing PA-RISC, then SPARC the day after that. Maybe you want to retire a couple legacy Alpha workstations, this would allow you to do that. I'd find it interesting to take that concept to the next level so to speak. You have a single massive processor in a computer with hundreds of cores, which can be dynamically programmed and allocated to various functions. So you might dedicate one core to being a NIC, and a second core to being a sound card, then maybe a dozen would be x86, and so on. And at pretty much any time you could reprogram a particular core to perform a different function. So almost the entire motherboard would be given over to housing this massive blob of silicon. There are obviously a few technical hurdles that would need to be overcome yet, and odds are no company would go for it, because it would make each defective chip significantly more expensive, but you've got to admit it'd be cool.

  3. #43
    imMortal Kombatant Array Myk SilentShadow PC Specs
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    I understand Multi-CPU setups just fine, I was actually surprised to find on a website that I buy my gear through that they do in fact have the only dual CPU Motherboard listed on their site. the EVGA Classified SR-X 270-SE-W888-KR. And considering it's a 2011 Socket I wasn't surprised at the $779 AUD asking price lol. Can you imagine the storm that would come about if people had to actually program their own CPU's for whatever uses they needed? i'd have fun trying to learn it...but this is pretty much the main reason Linux hasn't taken on the worldwide dominance it's destined for....people got scared of the fact they have to physically compile their programs to run them

    @DC yep, i'm a crApple hater...but I have actually used one of their systems and that was an Apple IIe and that damn thing turned me way off...though, here in Aus if you wanna own an Apple based desktop/laptop....you'd need to get a small personal loan to afford one lol

  4. #44
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    @DC, you can cross-compile on any system you like. I do it on LINUX from an x86 when developing for ARM-based Android. Granted the Android apps are compiled for the Dalvik virtual machine, but the point is still the same, the development system is different from the target system. The Android environment is built from x86, and can be tested on x86 via emulator's such as QEMU. Apple's compiler is the LLVM (Clang) compiler, which is available for LINUX (though not the default). GCC is perfectly capable of cross-compiling - in fact, that is what Android proper is compiled with, just most people don't, since, as we all know, the vast bulk of personal computers are x86 based.

    As to Mac being a LINUX system with a bunch of pretty GUI on it, that simply isn't true. It is based off of BSD UNIX (with the Mach microkernel by Carnegie-Mellon). LINUX was a completely different source base (originally developed on MINIX, but sharing no code [MINIX itself was developed by Andrew S. Tanenbaum at Vrije University in the Netherlands]). Yes, they both have similar command-line APIs, but no, they are not the same. The core UNIX calls are similar, but all the GUI and such is not. Hence why GTK has been ported to other platforms, and the existence of windowing toolkits such as Qt.

    As to Apple making their computers cheaper, that may have been true back in the 1980s, but it is not so any longer. They have not really changed the price of entry of their computers in the last four years. Most PC vendors today have OK budget systems at ~$400 or so, the cheapest Mac sales I have seen start around ~$900. Granted, I would not buy a $400 computer, but my $1500 ASUS machine is more powerful than a $2200 Macbook pro of the same vintage. Not to mention that the cooling system is better, so the computer is even faster than specifications would rate it.

    I have used Mac OS, and I find it's GUI very counter-intuitive. Granted, as I have become more familiar with the LINUX/UNIX command-line I am no longer so dependent on the UI, but I still would prefer something more along the lines of the Windows-style interface, which is really well done - testament to why 3 of the 4 most common window managers on LINUX are styled significantly after Windows (Gnome is the exception). Oh, and by the way, on a more personal note, I dislike Gnome and Unity.


    @cl-scott, I have heard about the micro-code-programmable CPUs. If it were economical (and not too power-consuming), then that would be an awesome method of compatibility. However, I doubt that there is enough of a market for a system that natively runs all major platforms to make it worth the chip-makers time and money to produce. Still, it would be awesome... While I am not certain if the Z80 is one of those chips that is micro-code programmable, it turns out that the chip has instructions that Zilog never documented as existing. These "hidden" instructions were really odd multi-byte instructions that were effectively combinations of two other multi-byte instructions.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
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  5. #45
    Shut Up Stupid! Array DaemonCantor's Avatar
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    Zygo I hate to say this but I didn't state Cross Platform Compiling is only x86 or ARM as you have just stated I stated ANY Computer... go back and read it. The Mac can compile for the Play Station as well and it's not x86 as well as compile for the Chines Dragoon Platform which definitely isn't x86 but the Mac can as well as the Computer found in a Missile or a Targeting Computer or even the five that ran the Space Shuttle of which also are not x86 based. As to the Kernel that the Mac uses isn't a Complete MACH but a Hybrid of the Minix and MACH which was Developed by GNU and afterward GNU was terminated to keep the secret of it's building. Some time when you get a chance go look up the Source code for OS 10.4 which was released out into the Public by the Cort's. True it's more MACh( notice the small 'h' and there was a reason for that which was Meaning Hybrid)

    Next complaint was Again go back reread and understand... I didn't state at any time that the Macs were cheaper but instead I stated that they were very Expensive and offered a way to cut the Price down by a long shot and if you think a Computer that cost $16,000 USD is cheap then why the hell are you using an ASUS product? I know I didn't state how big you could cut the cost but I do believe that a drop from $16,000 down to around $3,000 is a hell of a lot... wouldn't you agree.

    Just because I love the Mac and all doesn't mean it's suited to everybody just as the Windows System isn't suited to every one or is the Linux System and your one of those that apparently have used them and it doesn't suit you which is just fine but I have never called you directly a Mac Hater just as I have never doubted your knowledge of Linux as compared to my Lack of Linux Knowledge...lol Yes there is a whole lot of Linux I don't know but then again I went to try it again and ran into a problem of which I posted here and got no response even from you. This is one reason I've back out of these forums...Basically why the hell should I help or be here when I can't even get a little help when I need it.

    No I'm not back I just had spotted this thread and started to enjoy it.

    Thank you Zygo I didn't know that about the Z80's I'll have to go look it up fo giggles since I only wrote one program for that particular CPU and it was a PAIN... Most of the stuff I do anymore are custom Hardware Drivers for myself or little Progies that I need ATM and later discard. Most of what I do anymore is Play Games, Watch Anime, Play Games, Do Artwork, Drink some Beer , Play Games....you know!
    Last edited by DaemonCantor; 11-30-2012 at 06:01 AM.

  6. #46
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    @DC, that is a function of the LLVM compiler, which is available for LINUX too. That is not an intrinsic feature of the Mac or LINUX system, that is argument over which compiler is better: GCC or LLVM. For reference, here is the GCC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Com...#Architectures

    I am aware of the hybrid, and no it does not use any MINIX code. It is a microkernel like MINIX, but none of the MINIX code is used. Due to issues with Prentice-Hall, the source code of MINIX was not released under a free-software (BSD-style) license until the early 2000s.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  7. #47
    ROG Guru: Grand Master Array Arne Saknussemm PC Specs
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    OK so, seems like this was all a bit of journalistic hot air...as is so much these days....

    http://www.techspot.com/news/51014-i...le-future.html
    Last edited by Arne Saknussemm; 12-06-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  8. #48
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Saknussemm View Post
    OK so, seems like this was all a bit of journalistic hot air...as is so much these days....

    http://www.techspot.com/news/51014-i...le-future.html
    Good. I understand the laws of economics, but I still hope Intel really holds true to their word and keeps creating socketed CPUs.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  9. #49
    No Longer Works at ASUS Array
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zygomorphic View Post
    Good. I understand the laws of economics, but I still hope Intel really holds true to their word and keeps creating socketed CPUs.
    I don't care if it's a socket or they go back to a slot system, just so long as it's possible to keep making custom PCs. Generally I don't really have the time and/or desire to do that myself anymore, but it's comforting to me knowing that I could if I so wanted.

    And curse you guys for posting interesting things when I have to take care of pesky RMAs and what not.

  10. #50
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cl-scott View Post
    I don't care if it's a socket or they go back to a slot system, just so long as it's possible to keep making custom PCs. Generally I don't really have the time and/or desire to do that myself anymore, but it's comforting to me knowing that I could if I so wanted.

    And curse you guys for posting interesting things when I have to take care of pesky RMAs and what not.
    Hey! Hey! You are getting paid...not me! We get to do the fun stuff, you get to take care of the dough stuff.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

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