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Thread: LINUX Install

  1. #131
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    Thanks Nodens - very helpful!

    Edit: I read the article you linked to, very informative, particularly the 1st section comparing LVM striped with RAID0.

    My striped LVM data disks (currently 2x 2TB HDDs) hold files ranging from ~250KB (small jpegs) to ~20MB (RAW camera files) to ~60-80MB (TIFF). It seems that write performance doesn't suffer to bad when using LVM versus RAID0.

    I think we both have totally different usage patterns:

    1. Yours, from what I gathered through another post of yours, is that you run a business and replace/sell hardware regularly to fit new needs, or to make sure you don't run into troubles with old hardware.
    Also, it seems that running multiple OSes will require your disk I/O to cope equally well with small and large files, and it's easy to see how you and your business benefits from a well-performing virtualized Windows test bench environment based on Xen.

    2. My PC platform grows "naturally". When I built my current PC, I reused most of my drives from the old PC and added only a SSD (for Linux OS and the Windows guest OS) and another HDD for data (the second HDD in the striped LVM volume). In the meantime I had to add another HDD.
    The advantage of LVM - to me - is that I can add HDDs and grow file systems when needed. NOT using RAID frees me from the need to get identical disks. So my PC holds a 120GB SSD, a 500GB drive, a 1TB drive, and 3x 2TB drives. Of course if I were to buy disks now I would go for 3TB drives (best price/performance ratio and - by now - mature technology).
    The only thing that I'm not yet settled on is the backup method(s) - currently I use several different methods for different data and purposes: Backup on import of photos (Lightroom functionality), internal backup of OS and VM using LVM snapshot with dd and pigz, backup to external HDDs using the disk's backup utility under Windows, rsync-type backup to my media PC. It's a bit of a mess, I admit.

    Considering the performance and ease of use, I will probably standardize on rsync for data backup (I use luckybackup with ssh for that), and move some disks to my media PC/server in the cellar.
    Last edited by powerhouse; 01-12-2014 at 11:44 AM.

  2. #132
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Me, I feel like a moron...Thanks @Nodens! Actually, I've played with Xen before, never got it running right, so I may have to try it again, just to see if I can get it working, since it looks like such a great idea. However, I'm on a laptop, so it may not be so useful. The other thing I may have to play with is LINUX on my Android phone...
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  3. #133
    Super Moderator - Coderat Array Nodens PC Specs
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerhouse View Post
    My striped LVM data disks (currently 2x 2TB HDDs) hold files ranging from ~250KB (small jpegs) to ~20MB (RAW camera files) to ~60-80MB (TIFF). It seems that write performance doesn't suffer to bad when using LVM versus RAID0.
    Indeed. You could still benefit a lot from a hardware RAID controller though due to cached writes and due to redundancy. Also hardware RAID doesn't have some of the limitations of software RAID. More on this below.

    I think we both have totally different usage patterns:
    Indeed

    1. Yours, from what I gathered through another post of yours, is that you run a business and replace/sell hardware regularly to fit new needs, or to make sure you don't run into troubles with old hardware.
    Also, it seems that running multiple OSes will require your disk I/O to cope equally well with small and large files, and it's easy to see how you and your business benefits from a well-performing virtualized Windows test bench environment based on Xen.
    Considering I'm an indie developer, I run a very tight ship. Meaning I only upgrade when performance is needed and the cost is justified. Hardware for me is a business asset first and any recreational uses come secondary For example I would never buy a X chip as the additional CPU cache is not worth the double price for my particular usage. If I was building a render farm though, I would (although I would go with Xeons+Tesla in that case heh). As long as the hardware pays back, I'll upgrade.

    2. My PC platform grows "naturally". When I built my current PC, I reused most of my drives from the old PC and added only a SSD (for Linux OS and the Windows guest OS) and another HDD for data (the second HDD in the striped LVM volume). In the meantime I had to add another HDD.
    The advantage of LVM - to me - is that I can add HDDs and grow file systems when needed. NOT using RAID frees me from the need to get identical disks. So my PC holds a 120GB SSD, a 500GB drive, a 1TB drive, and 3x 2TB drives. Of course if I were to buy disks now I would go for 3TB drives (best price/performance ratio and - by now - mature technology).
    The only thing that I'm not yet settled on is the backup method(s) - currently I use several different methods for different data and purposes: Backup on import of photos (Lightroom functionality), internal backup of OS and VM using LVM snapshot with dd and pigz, backup to external HDDs using the disk's backup utility under Windows, rsync-type backup to my media PC. It's a bit of a mess, I admit.

    Considering the performance and ease of use, I will probably standardize on rsync for data backup (I use luckybackup with ssh for that), and move some disks to my media PC/server in the cellar.
    Exactly this is the advantage of LVM. The flexibility I was talking about. Though do notice that quality hardware RAID controllers will let do you do a few tricks with disks. For example using 3 arbitrary drives like a 2x 1TB and one 500GB, you could build a 500GB RAID5 (on 3 disks) AND a 500GB RAID0 with the leftover from the 2 1TB drives, or you could use the extra space as JBOD. Quality hardware controllers give you a form of flexibility AND several other features such as RAID level migration, growing/shrinking etc etc. They are not as flexible as plain LVM but they're pretty close. The downside? They're expensive (at least quality ones..LSI, Areca/Tekram, etc).

    And your backup "hell" brings me to the other great benefit of RAID. Redundancy. I do not use RAID0 as most people do. RAID0 for me for anything other than temporary/scratch disks or cache storage is useless. I am not interested in adding points of failure in my systems.
    RAID is all about redundancy for me and the performance I also get out of it, is a bonus. Managing TB of backups is utter hell. RAID5 gives you a decent level of redundancy and 6 even more by sacrificing 1 or 2 drives. This keeps you "operating" unless you suffer a catastrophic failure. It's not a substitute for proper backups but it certainly reduces the amount of data you need to backup and the frequency.

    Everything critical should be backed up with multiple copies. But non-critical data are fine with RAID5 redundancy. I will mind if I lose entire projects. But the space and resources required to backup those is minimum. VMs or OS and app installations etc etc, is nothing that can not be replaced. RAID5 though keeps you working even if one drive fails. RAID6 with 2. So you avoid downtime and backups of insignificant data. LVM striping is just as bad as RAID0 as far as I'm concerned. Any situation that results in complete data disaster in case of a drive going bad is absolutely horrible. I can not backup 12TB of data regularly just in the case that something like this may happen. I can backup 1-2TB and use RAID5 to make it really hard to fail. If the case happens that 2 drives simultaneously go bad without any previous signs of failure, which is statistically improbable unless you're operating a data center, then I have my critical data and can rebuild. But this will be a very rare case IF it ever happens. While having a single drive failing out of 3 is not that hard now, is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zygomorphic View Post
    Me, I feel like a moron...Thanks @Nodens! Actually, I've played with Xen before, never got it running right, so I may have to try it again, just to see if I can get it working, since it looks like such a great idea. However, I'm on a laptop, so it may not be so useful. The other thing I may have to play with is LINUX on my Android phone...
    Years ago Xen was much harder to use. Nowadays Zyg, it's very easy specially for an experienced Linux user such as yourself and with PCI passthrough (on a laptop that features an IGP as well) you can forget ever booting Windows on baremetal again
    Last edited by Nodens; 01-12-2014 at 10:38 PM.
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  4. #134
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    I agree, @Nodens, data backups are important. Loved the part about operating a data center (which, thank heaven, I don't). I keep backups of everything important, that I don't want to risk losing, and I don't bother with LVM, since it is just asking for more trouble than its worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nodens View Post
    Years ago Xen was much harder to use. Nowadays Zyg, it's very easy specially for an experienced Linux user such as yourself and with PCI passthrough (on a laptop that features an IGP as well) you can forget ever booting Windows on baremetal again
    @Nodens, I wish that I was as experienced as you think I am. I've used LINUX a bit, and I know my way around OS's in general, but as far as the nitty gritty of system configuration, that's not me.

    I believe what you say is true, @Nodens, and I am going to have to try that, since it would be really awesome. Now can you run an existing installation that is on a separate partition from within Xen? That would be the first step towards cleaning the Windows...
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  5. #135
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    Today I put Precise Puppy 5.7.1 on a 16 GB SanDisk Extreme 3.0 that I found for $28 @ B&H and I have to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the speed. It loads to RAM in seconds and afterward everything is nearly instantaneous. We'll see if I'm still impressed overall after I drive it around for a couple of weeks. The jury is still out, but I really like the idea of being able to carry everything I might need around with me in my pocket if I want to.

  6. #136
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IM2L844 View Post
    Today I put Precise Puppy 5.7.1 on a 16 GB SanDisk Extreme 3.0 that I found for $28 @ B&H and I have to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the speed. It loads to RAM in seconds and afterward everything is nearly instantaneous. We'll see if I'm still impressed overall after I drive it around for a couple of weeks. The jury is still out, but I really like the idea of being able to carry everything I might need around with me in my pocket if I want to.
    I hadn't thought about using Puppy, but due to its smaller size, I might. I pretty much always have a USB flash drive with LINUX on it so that I can boot it wherever I go, but it takes a while to load, probably due to the larger distro coupled with the slower USB interface.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  7. #137
    Nick Array IM2L844's Avatar
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    I hadn't thought about using Puppy, but due to its smaller size, I might. I pretty much always have a USB flash drive with LINUX on it so that I can boot it wherever I go, but it takes a while to load, probably due to the larger distro coupled with the slower USB interface.
    It's rockin' so far. Timed it this morning...16 seconds to load, but I don't know how much of that is due to the 3.0 flash drive. 2.0 might take a couple seconds more, but that wouldn't be anything to really ***** about. Once it's in RAM, it's freaky fast on my system. It's definitely worth giving a whirl. I like playing with new toys though and after a couple of years of using various distros I'm still not set in my Linux ways so maybe it's just worth it to me.

  8. #138
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IM2L844 View Post
    It's rockin' so far. Timed it this morning...16 seconds to load, but I don't know how much of that is due to the 3.0 flash drive. 2.0 might take a couple seconds more, but that wouldn't be anything to really ***** about. Once it's in RAM, it's freaky fast on my system. It's definitely worth giving a whirl. I like playing with new toys though and after a couple of years of using various distros I'm still not set in my Linux ways so maybe it's just worth it to me.
    Yeah, that's what I was figuring, based upon my booting taking closer to 30 seconds. I'm willing to be it's my older USB 2.0 flash drive that's causing it. My USB 3.0 is faster, but USB 3.0 is unstable on my G53SX (always has been).
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

  9. #139
    Super Moderator - Coderat Array Nodens PC Specs
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    I always carry a 2 usb flash drives with me. One with windows tools in general that also boots Free DOS (includes flashing tools etc etc) and one with Kali Linux (for on the fly security auditing) and Knoppix (for data recovery).
    RAMPAGE Windows 8/7 UEFI Installation Guide - Patched OROM for TRIM in RAID - Patched UEFI GOP Updater Tool - ASUS OEM License Restorer
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  10. #140
    New ROGer Array Zygomorphic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodens View Post
    I always carry a 2 usb flash drives with me. One with windows tools in general that also boots Free DOS (includes flashing tools etc etc) and one with Kali Linux (for on the fly security auditing) and Knoppix (for data recovery).
    Armed and dangerous. @Nodens has both barrels out and ready for action! Good plans, I should start carrying a LINUX drive with me as well.
    I am disturbed because I cannot break my system...found out there were others trying to cope! We have a support group on here, if your system will not break, please join!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=16
    We now have 178 people whose systems will not break! Yippee!
    LINUX Users, we have a group!
    http://rog.asus.com/forum/group.php?groupid=23

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