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  1. #831
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    It would sure be nice to know what they fixed/changed.

  2. #832
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    Asus reps, could you look into the USB Hub issue with this motherboard/BIOS? I use a lot of USB devices and I have a lot of USB hubs.

    The problem is, if a certain amount of USB hubs is plugged in, the BIOS locks up on POST. I've never had this issue with any other computer I've had. And no, changing BIOS settings related to USB doesn't fix the issue. I've tried them all. It seems around hub quantity #10 is where it locks up. No, I don't physically have that many hubs, its just that it counts a lot of "built in" devices in the motherboard as "hubs" too.

  3. #833
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    Ultimate question.

    Has anyone found information published by Asus on the methods used to make crosschill? Is there any factual information that can be found?

    Also, is there anyone who has been watercooling their loop with copper blocks/nickel blocks/and also this aluminum anodized block on the motherboard? Have you inspected the cross chill after months of use within a loop?

    Really curious if cross chill is worth using or if I will be putting a loop which is worth multiple times the cost of this motherboard at jeopardy

  4. #834
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    CrossChill

    I'm running a custom loop with GPU / CPU / Crosschill. Operational for about 3 months with distilled water + Feser base corrosion blocker. There is really no point of using Crosschill for functional purposes, but I've included it in my loop because it made the piping layout much better organized.

    I've done quite a bit of research on this and the consensus seems to be is that mixing metals will cause galvanic corrosion no matter what you try (aside from using a non-conductive fluid like Fluorinert). It's all about the rate of corrosion. I'm sure most of us would be ok with the fact that the water-blocks will show significant corrosion after 10 years. If it's one or two years - different story.

    Things like anodizing the aluminum, using corrosion blockers (antifreeze) and changing the coolant every 6 months will slow the rate of galvanic corrosion down (although some people don't agree with the last point). As to how much you can slow it down, and what it will mean it terms of lifespan - hard to say. Due to long time-frames and possibility of you ruining your blocks (let alone disassembling your loop on a regular basis) no-one that I know has attempted to conduct such an experiment.
    ROG has published an article where they tried to prove that their anodizing solves galvanic corrosion issues by using salt-spraying on the Crosschill to simulate several years in a water loop. The article has many problems - it does not appear that they created a galvanic cell through their salt-spraying (whatever this is), haven't seen any sort of correlations between their method and real-life loops, and by the end of the test the block did start to show signs of corrosion. In theory, a perfectly anodized aluminum block should slow galvanic corrosion down quite a bit. In practice, all it takes is a small imperfection for the corrosion to start.

    Fortunately, EK has recently released a water block for M6F - it replaces the Crosschill with a nickel-plated copper block and also has a second block for the south bridge. I've bought one last week and going to be installing it in the near future. If there are any signs of corrosion on the Crosschill, I'll post some pictures (unlikely, since I've only been running the loop for 3 months).

    All in all, it is a let-down on Asus' part, one that costs ~$100 to fix. However, aside from the aluminum waterblock, M6F is a superb motherboard. So my advice is - if your heart is set on M6F and you want to include VRM in your loop - buy the EK block.
    Last edited by Keyzman; 01-13-2014 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #835
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzman View Post
    I'm running a custom loop with GPU / CPU / Crosschill. Operational for about 3 months with distilled water + Feser base corrosion blocker. There is really no point of using Crosschill for functional purposes, but I've included it in my loop because it made the piping layout much better organized.

    I've done quite a bit of research on this and the consensus seems to be is that mixing metals will cause galvanic corrosion no matter what you try (aside from using a non-conductive fluid like Fluorinert). It's all about the rate of corrosion. I'm sure most of us would be ok with the fact that the water-blocks will show significant corrosion after 10 years. If it's one or two years - different story.

    Things like anodizing the aluminum, using corrosion blockers (antifreeze) and changing the coolant every 6 months will slow the rate of galvanic corrosion down (although some people don't agree with the last point). As to how much you can slow it down, and what it will mean it terms of lifespan - hard to say. Due to long time-frames and possibility of you ruining your blocks (let alone disassembling your loop on a regular basis) no-one that I know has attempted to conduct such an experiment.
    ROG has published an article where they tried to prove that their anodizing solves galvanic corrosion issues by using salt-spraying on the Crosschill to simulate several years in a water loop. The article has many problems - it does not appear that they created a galvanic cell through their salt-spraying (whatever this is), haven't seen any sort of correlations between their method and real-life loops, and by the end of the test the block did start to show signs of corrosion. In theory, a perfectly anodized aluminum block should slow galvanic corrosion down quite a bit. In practice, all it takes is a small imperfection for the corrosion to start.

    Fortunately, EK has recently released a water block for M6F - it replaces the Crosschill with a nickel-plated copper block and also has a second block for the south bridge. I've bought one last week and going to be installing it in the near future. If there are any signs of corrosion on the Crosschill, I'll post some pictures (unlikely, since I've only been running the loop for 3 months).

    All in all, it is a let-down on Asus' part, one that costs ~$100 to fix. However, aside from the aluminum waterblock, M6F is a superb motherboard. So my advice is - if your heart is set on M6F and you want to include VRM in your loop - buy the EK block.
    Thanks Keyzman, seems you made an account here to post just as I did!
    I've spoke with some other people while about this. One person opened the block to test and confirmed it is a type 3 anodizing. He mentioned the type 1/2 are more of a surface cover and the type 3 is a hard thick layer, however, it can expand once >80C and end up cracking.( very hard to get that block to >80C )

    My worry is just what you said, it only takes one imperfection.

    You mentioned you will be installing the m6e from EK, I was a bit confused because it looks as the soutbridge block does NOT allow use with a non watercooled graphics card. It just seemed you cant use it with a regular card in place. Especially dual GPU if you aren't plugging single in the second slot

    Please do me and other owners a favor by posting these pics! I want to purchase the waterblock it is just a shame I am keeping the gpu's cooled on air this time around. (Warranty on a $600 card is not a joke )

  6. #836
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    Sure, I'll post pictures when I get around to the install.

    Are you concerned that a stock cooler on GPU won't clear the fittings/tubes to the south-bridge block? Looking at the picture it seems that the ports on the south-block are just above the second PCI port.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    To be honest, Im not sure if I even want to use the south-block, since it doesn't get hot enough to warrant water-cooling, but would add extra head to the loop, reducing my flow-rate.

  7. #837
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    I have the EK blocks on my MVIF. They are well designed with excellent quality and finish BTW. Regarding GPU clearance for the PCH block, EK lined up the ports perfectly with the third PCIe (1x) slot so that in theory you should be able to fit 2 dual-slot aircooled GPUs in the first 2 red PCIe slots without them blocking the PCH waterblock ports. But in practice it will be a tight fit, especially with larger fittings and tubing (barbs should be OK, fat compression fittings not).
    Last edited by AusRoG; 01-16-2014 at 12:29 AM.

  8. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by AusRoG View Post
    I have the EK blocks on my MVIF. They are well designed with excellent quality and finish BTW. Regarding GPU clearance for the PCH block, EK lined up the ports perfectly with the third PCIe (1x) slot so that in theory you should be able to fit 2 dual-slot aircooled GPUs in the first 2 red PCIe slots without them blocking the PCH waterblock ports. But in practice it will be a tight fit, especially with larger fittings and tubing (barbs should be OK, fat compression fittings not).
    This was the big question, compression fittings
    Seems it's millimeter clearance with barbs or thick tubing which I don't understand why they lined up the ports there, but again they can't do much considering asus put the pci-e slots where they are.
    I agree with Keyzman though, southbridge is going to only reduce flow rate of the loop.
    Going to consider the ek m6f blocks since the vrms on board don't even need the cooling

  9. #839
    ROG Guru: Yellow Belt Array JackNaylorPE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnonymous View Post
    Ultimate question.

    Has anyone found information published by Asus on the methods used to make crosschill? Is there any factual information that can be found?

    Also, is there anyone who has been watercooling their loop with copper blocks/nickel blocks/and also this aluminum anodized block on the motherboard? Have you inspected the cross chill after months of use within a loop?

    Really curious if cross chill is worth using or if I will be putting a loop which is worth multiple times the cost of this motherboard at jeopardy
    1. No matter what kind of aluminum is used or how it is treated, you will NOT be putting anything else in the build at risk. Aluminum is the least noble of all the metals mentioned and that means it is scientifically impossible for the presence of aluminum to result in corrosion of copper or nickel .... if anything it will protect the nickel / copper as it will act as a sacrificial anode much like a zinc on a boat. Whenever there is mixed metals, ONLY the least noble metal will corrode.... if in direct contact, or if the fluid is an electrolyte. That's what galvanic action is ..... electrons leave the lesser noble metal and flow to the more noble. The metal that leaves aluminum in such instances, if such occurs, will form oxides that may collect in blocks but this is easily cleaned and once done the copper / nickel surfaces will be as good as new.

    2, The Asus WB as well as the ones used by Gigabyte are made of Type 3 anodized aluminum and coated as per standard anodizing procedures. I have been working with anodized aluminum for over 25 years in harsh corrosive environments and find it holds up very well. Given this experience, I had no concerns with regard to purchasing this MoBo.

    3. I ran the loop for 5 days on DW before switching to Mayhems Pastel (Red) Coolant. I did notice at the time of change out that some paint flakes had collected in the CPU (clear acrylic top) Block, my guess dislodged from assembling / reassembling fittings in the rads while installing / and adjusting lengths of rigid acrylic tubing. They were removed by reverse flushing DW thru the block. However, I wanted to check and see if any more had collected last weekend and partially drained the loop..... blocks were free from any deleterious materials and the Crosschill, when examined thru the ports, looked fine.

    4. I don't much look for an internet consensus on topics such as this as most of those parroting what they "read on the internet" (reminded of the "french model" commercial) have no training in corrosion protection, chemistry, etc. If you see it stated that the presence of aluminum can cause copper or nickel to corrode, it's a given that the source is "misinformed".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I

    5. The usage I am talking about over the 25 years is in waste water treatment plants and marine environments ..... salt water is a great electrolyte and superb at providing the necessary electrical conduit necessary for galvanic corrosion to take place. Regardless of what metals are in the loop, without direct contact or an electrolyte to "carry" the electrons, galvanic corrosion is impossible. As for the salt spray test, anyone working in the field of corrosion protection is familiar with this test. It's not something "made up" by Asus, it **is** the standard method which engineers use to determine suitability of materials. Standards are promulgated by ASTM and ISO as well other standards organizations. The use of a salt spray presents a "way over the top" environment for a water cooling environment.

    http://saltspraytesting.com/

    I used two EK Blacks in my build but anyone who has been into water cooling in the last 3 years is well aware of EK's past nickel plating problems.... while I (obviously, since I have 3 of them in my siggie build) have no concern about EK's current plating procedures, I have less concern about the anodized water block.

    The EK Block however presents some issues .... they should have made both pieces available separately.... as that Bridge block has proven impossible to install in some situations .... not bad for flex tube but rigid tubing presents quite a challenge. As far as imperfections.... the same holds true for the nickel plating process.... one small imperfection and the plating will peel. Some nice pics of this over on OCN.

    6. It must be acknowledged that thermal expansion above 80C can cause anodizing to crack .... My block is currently at 40C and the water in it has never exceeded about 35C so no worries there ..... but reservoir manufacturers also disclaim warranty if ya temperature exceeds as little as 50C, so not quite sure why this would ever be a concern.

    7. I started designing plants and piping systems in 1976 and in all that time, dissimilar metals protection in pipelines, storage tanks in the water and waste water industry and in all that time have seen one instance of galvanic corrosion on anodized aluminum. An operator has decided that the aluminum bolts provided by the equipment manufacturer weren't strong enough so he used Stainless Steel, and he torqued them down way well above the amount stated in the manual. The over tightening actually cracked the aluminum and the salt solution stored in the fabricated item worked aggressively on the two dissimilar metals which were in direct physical contact. Without that contact, which occurred over the space of about 3 years, corrosion would have been drastically reduced.

    I should also mention that other MoBo manufacturers are going this route. Was told a few days ago that Gigabyte has a aluminum WB on their G1.Sniper 5
    Last edited by JackNaylorPE; 01-16-2014 at 07:04 PM.
    October 26 Build
    MoBo:Max VI Formula
    RAM:16GB Mushkin DDR3-2400 10-12-12-28
    GFX:2x Asus GTX780 DCII
    HD: 2x Seagate 2TB Hybrid SSHD
    SSD:2x Samsung 840 Pro 256GB
    PSU:Seasonic X-1250
    Case:Phanteks Enthoo Primo
    OS:Win 7 Pro-64
    Monitor:Asus VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz
    Optical:Asus BR Burner
    KB: Logitech G19s
    Mouse:RoG GX950
    Fan Con.: Six Eyes
    Cooling:420+280 Alphacool Rads, 35x2 Pump, EK CPU/ GPU Blocks, Acrylic Tubes w/ BP Fit

  10. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnonymous View Post
    This was the big question, compression fittings
    Seems it's millimeter clearance with barbs or thick tubing which I don't understand why they lined up the ports there, but again they can't do much considering asus put the pci-e slots where they are.
    I agree with Keyzman though, southbridge is going to only reduce flow rate of the loop.
    Going to consider the ek m6f blocks since the vrms on board don't even need the cooling
    If you're not going to use the PCH block then I don't know if it's worth paying for the EK kit. Personally I was initially going to use the Crosschill in my loop (after deciding galvanic corrosion probably won't be an issue), I even tested it under water and was happy with it's performance (good temps and little flow restriction).

    Then EK released their kit and I loved the idea of putting it on my board. Since I'm only using a single watercooled GTX 780 I don't have any clearance issues with the PCH waterblock. I found the stock PCH heatsink actually gets quite hot after a while and I liked the idea of putting that under water too - the less hot air that's dumped into my case the lower I can turn my case fans. And the EK blocks actually look pretty good, the black Acetal version fits in very well with the ROG armor. But if I was using dual slot aircooled graphics cards I would definitely not have bothered and just used the Crosschill.

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