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  1. #1
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    new rog build - need water-cooling advice

    thanks to kkm for leading me here!

    bit o’ backstory: i’m an american living and working in taiwan…and local prices and availability are a huge constraining factor, so i’m thinking of having a friend back in the states order and build this for me (he knows what he’s doing), and then ship it to me fed-ex or ups in the case’s original packing material + insurance – i know, it sounds horribly risky…but after thoroughly looking at my options… trying to source the following parts here, having them shipped separately from the states and building it myself, or paying up to 100% more for some of the pieces in the local gray market…the cost of the build, shipment and insurance is far less than the other options – my builder friend will put it together and burn it in for a couple of weeks in case of any defects/backorders leading to rma’s or swapping out a piece or two – of course it would be shipped fully drained of fluids

    if you can think of any other option—safer shipping materials, for example—i’m all ears…

    Budget: ~ us$6000 (nt$200,000)
    Main uses of intended build: gaming
    Parts required: (see below)
    Previous build information (list details of parts): keeping speakers (bose 5 companion), keyboard (corsair vengeance k70 rgb), mouse (logitech g700s)
    Monitor resolution: 2560 x 1440 (up to 7680 x 1440 if i can find three rog swift pg278q locally – separate budget)
    Storage requirements: all ssd (see below)
    Will you be overclocking: yes
    Any motherboard requirements (no. of USB, Xfire/SLI, fan headers): see below, re. fans
    Extra information about desired system: see below

    cpu: i7-5930k
    mobo: rampage v extreme
    ram: g.skill ripjaws ddr4-3000 16gb (4x4gb – red)
    storage: samsung xp941 256gb m.2-2280 ssd (boot) & samsung 850 pro 1tb ssd
    gpu: 2-way sli gtx 980 (waiting a bit hoping for a better non-ref)
    case: corsair 780t (black)
    psu: corsair ax1200i
    os: win 8.1 pro
    cooling: this is where i really need some help / suggestions

    • custom single-loop water cooling (cpu and gpu’s)
    • trying to maintain a red / black rog theme wherever possible
    • modest cpu (~4.4ghz) and gpu overclocking (1300+mhz
    • prefer non-rigid tubing, 3/8 x 5/8” and rotary-type fittings wherever they’re helpful (uv red tubing, red or red/black fittings wherever possible)
    • prefer more copper than brass, but understand the difficulties there – no aluminum, and nickel / nickel plating worries me, re. silver bullet and nickel, bad plating, etc
    • plan on using a single, removable piece of fill/drain tubing with male qdc matched to 2 females (or vice-versa) at top and bottom of loop for easier maintenance whenever needed
    • plan on using no dyes or mixes…just distilled water or deionized water (whatever’s more readily available in my market)…though the latter is with my understanding that it would become ionized very quickly, but that deionized water (i.e. de-mineralized) is just as pure (if not more so) than distilled… + whatever biocide, silver bullet, kill coil, etc, is most highly recommended
    • have looked at a dual-bay res/pump (d5 pwm), but am leaning towards an interior res/pump because 1. i’d like to mount the r5e oc panel in one of the two 5.25” bays, and 2. the case is so big that there would likely be a big “dead space” top to bottom and between the edge of the mobo and back of the 5.25” bays (as i’m going full ssd for storage, I’ll be removing all the 3.5” cages and mounts) – looks like there’ll be room for at most a 360mm-tall res + pump and fittings
    • plan on having rads in the top and front, at least 280mm (not sure on width yet) and bigger if I can be sure they’ll fit – a 360mm up top looks to cause problems for useable 5.25” bays, and a 360mm in the front doesn’t appear to fit unless its length is less than 398mm *and* has no plugs at the top of the chamber – both rads would be full push/pull (top exhaust, front intake)
    • for the waterblocks, i’m partial to the xspc raystorm - special edition copper w/ red faceplate for the cpu…and still waiting to see what’s available for the gpu water blocks, re. whatever gtx 980 i end up getting
    • for the fans, i don’t have any experience with fan control…so i’m not sure whether to go with the mobo/bios/fan xpert3 or a single bay controller - controlled by pwm (push/pull fans…and pump?) or just adjust by voltage – i’ve done a lot of reading here, but there’s so much conflicting information – would be cool to be able to play around with fan/pump settings (in conjunction with a couple of in-line temp sensors just outside of the rad outflows) to experiment and find something optimal…but really my main priorities are that it is easy to use, looks good, and works well – was thinking that the usual rear exhaust 140mm would be high cfm and turned around to blow cooler air to the bottom of the top rad push/pull and increase positive pressure in the case (would put a filter back there…and if it doesn’t work, it’s an easy switch back) – if the psu / front rad push/pull / pump housing allow for it, i’d also like to put a high cfm 140mm intake on the bottom of the case – push/pull fans should be reasonably high static pressure and matched – fans should be black/red trim or red led (but not so many as to look tacky)
    • aesthetics: thinking of using rad/fan gaskets/silencers on all fans to improve airflow and reduce noise – inner push/pull fans would have red/black primochill hex grills…so, between the gaskets and grills (adds ~4mm), i might need some advice on different rad/fan screws – lighting would come from 1. any led fans (red) and/or 2. strategically placed tailed or strip leds in a combination of red and uv – red tubing would have black anti-kink coils – psu cables are all sleeved in red, and all other visible cabling would be sleeved in uv red or black with contrasting heatshrink


    i would really, really value any opinions, options, suggestions, criticisms…as i’m just an old dude who likes to game and has spent most of his life with second or third-rate gear

    thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    iron man Array kkn's Avatar
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    radiator/radiators. you need 2x 120mm fan slot for each OC'd component, and since you live in a hot place you may need some more unless you have a house thats cold in a way.

    GPU blocks, it MAY take some time until they are out.
    you can try and ask in the EK section further below in the forum and ask when they have an estimate on release on reference card blocks.
    heres some pics of upcoming it looks like -> http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/...ks_-Page1.html

    your friend could buy all the parts, and test it out and pack it back up and pack it all in a large cardboard box and ship it that way, so that way you would not get eny thing busted up ( hopefully ).
    for tubing im using 3/8-1/2 ( (10/13mm ) ID/OD ).
    use normal compression fittings, cheep and good compare to 6 pcs for 30-40 usd.

    gastkets + grills = waste of money
    lights. use LED strips and on the xspc take a look at this one -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14...323s1205#blank
    that one you can add led lights on whit what ever color you want ( you need a connector for the led if it is a small contact type on it unless its normal power connector on it )

    fans, get fans whit high mmh20 over 1.5
    dont go for CFM, you need preshure not flow to go tru the rads.

    pump/res combo, take a look and you can see you can get a pump of you wishes ( well as long as its listed in the options ) -> http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/...mbo-Page1.html

    case, i would take a look at the case options down there if you feel secure to add rads and tubings and things like that, since transport it WILL be trown back and forth even how "careful" they handle it, and things may get damaged.
    i had a friend who got his pc effed up and he got nothing back for it from the carrier and builder.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IihNgyt-ztE

    the problem whit rad thicknes and motherboard is the space from roof and down to closest obsticle, thats how mutch radiator space ( thicknes ) you can use, including fans.

    i have the 900D and its HUGE and i can fit 2x 480 rads and 1x 240 rad in it, and stil have space for my huge pump and res.
    i have the aquaero5 fan controller and i have fans connected to the pump witch can be controlled by software.
    but this is pricy things so.
    the fans i have now that make noise is now is the 3 i have connected to the motherboard, witch run at full speed.
    on the 360 and 240 rad i have them running at 4.0v witch is around 1000rpm'ish? give or take 100+rpm's.
    mine is 3pin fans so its not 100% accurate readings so.
    the 480 rad fans are connected to the pump witch will start at a given temp and go full speed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkn View Post
    radiator/radiators. you need 2x 120mm fan slot for each OC'd component, and since you live in a hot place you may need some more unless you have a house thats cold in a way.
    first off, thanks for the speedy reply! =)

    alright, so i have three oc'd components...so that's 720mm-worth of rads -- i was looking at a 280mm rad at both front and top, so that's obviously far short at only 560mm-worth

    a lot of the interior dimensions are guesswork from reading reviews, looking at the few images of 780t installs out there already, and pausing many video reviews to catch a peek of a mounting point - so i'm trying to err on the side of caution

    here are my thoughts on getting more rad space in:
    1. front will only allow for a maximum of 398mm top to bottom, because otherwise the screw holes don't line up
    2. top has a lot of room...~30mm above the case proper and below the top grill, and 95mm of clearance to the top of the mobo - only worry is that the length of the rad and push fans inside the case actually stick into the 5.25" bays about 7-8mm - i plan on using those, but only for something like your aquaero and r5e oc in normal mode...so i don't think they even reach to the back of the bays

    here you can see what i'm talking about in the vid:
    @17:26 top rad clearance
    @18:20 roof section
    @19:26 front radiator limitations


    so i think i'll go with this if i can't find a better option:
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12...r86&mv_pc=9364

    GPU blocks, it MAY take some time until they are out.
    you can try and ask in the EK section further below in the forum and ask when they have an estimate on release on reference card blocks.
    heres some pics of upcoming it looks like -> http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/...ks_-Page1.html
    nice! thank you...i really like the look of the copper and acrylic water block - but i'm also looking to get a non-reference gtx 980, so that might delay available water blocks even more

    as an aside, i'm wondering what people are thinking about water cooling these cards, as they're capable of extreme overclocking and the non-reference cards we've seen thus far seem to be the same card just with fancier air-cooling strategies -- would water cooling make the point of these non-ref models moot?

    your friend could buy all the parts, and test it out and pack it back up and pack it all in a large cardboard box and ship it that way, so that way you would not get eny thing busted up ( hopefully ). case, i would take a look at the case options down there if you feel secure to add rads and tubings and things like that, since transport it WILL be trown back and forth even how "careful" they handle it, and things may get damaged.
    i had a friend who got his pc effed up and he got nothing back for it from the carrier and builder.
    yeah, this is actually my single greatest worry...but i've checked with a lawyer friend and both fed-ex and ups - people with shipping damage that are refused reimbursement typically make a couple of big mistakes: 1. always have the shipping service deluxe pack it for you while you take photos or video, 2. place the case back into its original packing material and box, then put that into a larger box 2" larger on each side, which is filled with quality packing material...the same goes for inside the case (and yes, vid cards, etc, should be uninstalled and bubble-wrapped, and finally 3. the shipping service should clearly see your precautions and be supplied with copies of the original receipts/invoices showing the prices -- they're a business and will know how to protect their own interests

    for tubing im using 3/8-1/2 ( (10/13mm ) ID/OD ).
    use normal compression fittings, cheep and good compare to 6 pcs for 30-40 usd.
    do you find the 10/13mm better than other size tubing? from what i've read, it seems that anything from 3/8-5/8" to 1/2-3/4" doesn't increase cooling potential -- also, do you think it's better to stay with a single company for all fittings, or is the standard g1/4" prevalent enough to not make much difference?

    gastkets + grills = waste of money
    lol - yeah, you're right...but it's not much money being wasted, and it's bling!

    lights. use LED strips and on the xspc take a look at this one -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14...323s1205#blank
    that one you can add led lights on whit what ever color you want ( you need a connector for the led if it is a small contact type on it unless its normal power connector on it )
    that looks sweet, but i think i'll go with an all copper cpu block hoping for better cooling -- appreciate the tip on the led strips...i think that's the way i'll go, but with pass-through molex connectors if possible

    fans, get fans whit high mmh20 over 1.5
    dont go for CFM, you need preshure not flow to go tru the rads.
    yeah, all rad fans will be high static pressure (high mm/h2o) - only the rear 140mm and (if it fits) case bottom 140mm intake will be high cfm

    fan brands i'm considering for push/pull are: noiseblocker, bgears, bitfenix, and corsair...all high static pressure and pwm

    pump/res combo, take a look and you can see you can get a pump of you wishes ( well as long as its listed in the options ) -> [url]http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/c97/s152/list/p1/Liquid_Cooling-PC_Water_Cooling_Reservoirs-PumpResevoir_Combo-Page1.html[/url
    this...this is where i'm stuck at the moment - any recommendations? it will also likely decide which brand/type of fittings i'll use for the entire system

    i have the 900D and its HUGE
    hahaha, i wanted a bigger, stronger, tougher case...and considered the 900d, but the weight of it would push the shipping to over us$1000 -- the 780t is only about 13kg

    thanks again for your time and patience! =)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkn View Post
    radiator/radiators. you need 2x 120mm fan slot for each OC'd component, and since you live in a hot place you may need some more unless you have a house thats cold in a way.
    first off, thanks for the speedy reply! =)

    alright, so i have three oc'd components...so that's 720mm-worth of rads -- i was looking at a 280mm rad at both front and top, so that's obviously far short at only 560mm-worth

    a lot of the interior dimensions are guesswork from reading reviews, looking at the few images of 780t installs out there already, and pausing many video reviews to catch a peek of a mounting point - so i'm trying to err on the side of caution

    here are my thoughts on getting more rad space in:
    1. front will only allow for a maximum of 398mm top to bottom, because otherwise the screw holes don't line up
    2. top has a lot of room...~30mm above the case proper and below the top grill, and 95mm of clearance to the top of the mobo - only worry is that the length of the rad and push fans inside the case actually stick into the 5.25" bays about 7-8mm - i plan on using those, but only for something like your aquaero and r5e oc in normal mode...so i don't think they even reach to the back of the bays *confirmed - 360 rad here will prevent use of upper 5.25" bay*

    here you can see what i'm talking about in the vid:
    @17:26 top rad clearance
    @18:20 roof section
    @19:26 front radiator limitations


    so i think i'll go with this if i can't find a better option:
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12...r86&mv_pc=9364

    GPU blocks, it MAY take some time until they are out.
    you can try and ask in the EK section further below in the forum and ask when they have an estimate on release on reference card blocks.
    heres some pics of upcoming it looks like -> http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/...ks_-Page1.html
    nice! thank you...i really like the look of the copper and acrylic water block - but i'm also looking to get a non-reference gtx 980, so that might delay available water blocks even more

    as an aside, i'm wondering what people are thinking about water cooling these cards, as they're capable of extreme overclocking and the non-reference cards we've seen thus far seem to be the same card just with fancier air-cooling strategies -- would water cooling make the point of these non-ref models moot?

    your friend could buy all the parts, and test it out and pack it back up and pack it all in a large cardboard box and ship it that way, so that way you would not get eny thing busted up ( hopefully ). case, i would take a look at the case options down there if you feel secure to add rads and tubings and things like that, since transport it WILL be trown back and forth even how "careful" they handle it, and things may get damaged.
    i had a friend who got his pc effed up and he got nothing back for it from the carrier and builder.
    yeah, this is actually my single greatest worry...but i've checked with a lawyer friend and both fed-ex and ups - people with shipping damage that are refused reimbursement typically make a couple of big mistakes: 1. always have the shipping service deluxe pack it for you while you take photos or video, 2. place the case back into its original packing material and box, then put that into a larger box 2" larger on each side, which is filled with quality packing material...the same goes for inside the case (and yes, vid cards, etc, should be uninstalled and bubble-wrapped, and finally 3. the shipping service should clearly see your precautions and be supplied with copies of the original receipts/invoices showing the prices -- they're a business and will know how to protect their own interests

    for tubing im using 3/8-1/2 ( (10/13mm ) ID/OD ).
    use normal compression fittings, cheep and good compare to 6 pcs for 30-40 usd.
    do you find the 10/13mm better than other size tubing? from what i've read, it seems that anything from 3/8-5/8" to 1/2-3/4" doesn't increase cooling potential -- also, do you think it's better to stay with a single company for all fittings, or is the standard g1/4" prevalent enough to not make much difference?

    gastkets + grills = waste of money
    lol - yeah, you're right...but it's not much money being wasted, and it's bling!

    lights. use LED strips and on the xspc take a look at this one -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14...323s1205#blank
    that one you can add led lights on whit what ever color you want ( you need a connector for the led if it is a small contact type on it unless its normal power connector on it )
    that looks sweet, but i think i'll go with an all copper cpu block hoping for better cooling -- appreciate the tip on the led strips...i think that's the way i'll go, but with pass-through molex connectors if possible

    fans, get fans whit high mmh20 over 1.5
    dont go for CFM, you need preshure not flow to go tru the rads.
    yeah, all rad fans will be high static pressure (high mm/h2o) - only the rear 140mm and (if it fits) case bottom 140mm intake will be high cfm

    fan brands i'm considering for push/pull are: noiseblocker, bgears, phobya and bitfenix...all high static pressure and pwm

    pump/res combo, take a look and you can see you can get a pump of you wishes ( well as long as its listed in the options ) -> [url]http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g30/c97/s152/list/p1/Liquid_Cooling-PC_Water_Cooling_Reservoirs-PumpResevoir_Combo-Page1.html[/url
    this...this is where i'm stuck at the moment - any recommendations? it will also likely decide which brand/type of fittings i'll use for the entire system

    i have the 900D and its HUGE
    hahaha, i wanted a bigger, stronger, tougher case...and considered the 900d, but the weight of it would push the shipping to over us$1000 -- the 780t is only about 13kg

    thanks again for your time and patience! =)

  5. #5
    iron man Array kkn's Avatar
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    fans, im using the noiseblocker e-loops my self, and i think they are performing good ( well thats what I think ), the once i have can be controlled by voltage only ( non PWM ). -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...60&id=GIynDTPU
    if i was going for new fancontroller i would go for one whit PWM so i could controll the fans bether i think.
    i dont know what controller you have tought of but think about the PWM one.
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...tl=g36c365s936

    fittings, brands, well get one and stay whit it all over the loop.
    personaly i dont care TBH, since its only me who knows the diffrence in there.

    pump, mabye go whit a PWM controlled one so you can controll the flow on it.
    and get a flow ( taco ) meter on it.
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...c101s457#blank

    temp, heres the probe im using ( this is black ) -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21...tl=g44c137s491
    between the pump and the probe its around 1+C diffrence so not too baad.

    pump/res combo, here is an example, just fasten it on the bottom inside the case where the 120 fan can be instaled -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...c107s152#blank
    fan there is a waste enny way since you can use front as intake.
    and use top as fill port, in and outlet on bottom.
    a T fitting whit a valve as drain on the preshure side.
    but make shure your friend ask's if tings fit together when buying parts for WC, like pump and res combo witch is important.
    use a lill vaseline on the outside of the tubing to make it easyer to get it off again

    you can get "foam" blocks that you can have inside the case when shipping ( remember they have to be antistatic ones or else its bye bye ), but i would take apart like the GPU/GPU's and pump/res for example, since its just plug and play that.

    tubings, well if you want to go whit the one you listed by all means do so.
    i did go from large tubings to smaler one my self.
    and thick is harder to kink then thin tubing so.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkn View Post
    fans, im using the noiseblocker e-loops my self, and i think they are performing good ( well thats what I think ), the once i have can be controlled by voltage only ( non PWM ). -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...60&id=GIynDTPU
    if i was going for new fancontroller i would go for one whit PWM so i could controll the fans bether i think.
    i dont know what controller you have tought of but think about the PWM one.
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...tl=g36c365s936
    man, i looked at those e-loops while researching the noiseblocker fans - they're incredible...i just wish they were pwm and came in black

    these are the three types of static pressure pwm fans i'm considering:
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/19...86&mv_pc=31522
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12...86&mv_pc=31534
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/13...86&mv_pc=31537

    your second link (the one for a pwm controller) didn't work - it just took me back to the e-loop fans

    pump, mabye go whit a PWM controlled one so you can controll the flow on it.
    and get a flow ( taco ) meter on it.
    http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16...c101s457#blank
    pump/res combo, here is an example, just fasten it on the bottom inside the case where the 120 fan can be instaled
    lol - that's pretty much exactly what i picked out - good choice, i think -- will look at the flow meter in conjunction with the feature set of the controller i choose for the fans/pump

    temp, heres the probe im using ( this is black ) -> http://www.frozencpu.com/products/21...tl=g44c137s491
    between the pump and the probe its around 1+C diffrence so not too baad.
    nice find...i had been looking at port sensors and couldn't find a good fitting for them - thanks

    and use top as fill port, in and outlet on bottom.
    a T fitting whit a valve as drain on the preshure side.
    but make shure your friend ask's if tings fit together when buying parts for WC, like pump and res combo witch is important.
    use a lill vaseline on the outside of the tubing to make it easyer to get it off again
    planning on putting a female qdc at the top of the res and another in the back port of the pump top...then just have a long length of tubing with a male fitting and a single male qdc to swap in/out for fills/drains

    you can get "foam" blocks that you can have inside the case when shipping ( remember they have to be antistatic ones or else its bye bye ), but i would take apart like the GPU/GPU's and pump/res for example, since its just plug and play that.
    yeah, that's the plan

    here i'll post my current parts list, though it's not complete yet:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    and here's a rough schematic of the case, which helps me picture the rough layout and choose fittings (yes, go ahead and poke fun at my "paint" skillz) lol

    Click image for larger version. 

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    thanks again, kkn...your advice is highly valued =)
    Last edited by theMoP; 09-21-2014 at 06:08 PM. Reason: fat fingers

  7. #7
    iron man Array kkn's Avatar
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    no need for QDC in 2 places, have it before the res/pump, i have it between res and pump since i have a stand alone pump and res.
    so that way if you are lucky you can help it fill the loop and flush it ( you need extra water for that since you have front rad in/out let on top ).
    and try and not let the pump suck air since that will damage the impellar.

    my current build -> http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post272389

    and yes the link works, just look over the fan in the "link tread", they look the same but first one is voltage, and the last link is PWM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkn View Post
    no need for QDC in 2 places, have it before the res/pump, i have it between res and pump since i have a stand alone pump and res.
    so that way if you are lucky you can help it fill the loop and flush it ( you need extra water for that since you have front rad in/out let on top ).
    and try and not let the pump suck air since that will damage the impellar.

    my current build -> http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post272389

    and yes the link works, just look over the fan in the "link tread", they look the same but first one is voltage, and the last link is PWM.
    sorry, i'm not sure i understand

    but first off...wow, your build is a beast! that thing is huge!! i shudder to think what it would cost to fed-ex something like that from the us to china - lol

    i was looking for the qdc in your build pics, but didn't spot it

    i'm not really using two full qdc's...just two females and a single male (freud would make something of that)

    the single male is attached to a fill/drain section of hose i can detach and put away in a drawer until needed

    one female would attach directly to the top the res (with a male/male adapter and mini-valve) and do nothing unless i needed to fill or flush

    the other female would be connected to the unused port opposite the intake/outflow ports of the acrylic pump top...it'd be attached to a 90deg rotary fitting and mini-valve, letting it swivel down when unused...or towards the open side panel when i attach the male to drain the system

    being completely new to water cooling, perhaps i'm not understanding the steps involved in filling/draining/flushing or bleeding air from the system?

    here's a simple "paint" of what i had in mind - basically there'd be two similar pieces with the mini-valve:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    i apologize for my confusion, but i really do want this to be as easy as possible

  9. #9
    iron man Array kkn's Avatar
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    my QDC is down in between the rads in the bottom.
    you need a male and female for QDC to be working.

  10. #10
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    heh heh, i understand that part

    what i'd planned is...

    when i need to fill/bleed, i attach the fill hose (with male qdc attached) to the female qdc at the top of the reservoir and add water from outside of the case (it does nothing else)

    when i need to drain, i attach that same "fill" hose (with the male qdc attached) to the female qdc at the bottom of my pump and run the hose to a bucket (it does nothing else)

    so the females by themselves are simply a way of stopping flow/leakage/spills in the case...and attaching the male (to either end) makes the connection work whenever needed -- the mini-valves are just there as added protection

    but perhaps i'm not understanding the "flushing the system" part -- does it mean that you keep steadily filling at the same time as you're draining?

    again, i apologize for being dense - it's not intentional...i guess i'm doing something in an overly complex, overly expensive, or completely wrong way

    thanks for your patience, kkn

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