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  1. #601
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    Thanks Bahz,

    I've sent you a PM too with my ticket num. which I'm still waiting for an RMA approval, should you have time to check it.

    Have a nice day.

  2. #602
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    Small update on its Behavior

    I could see another thing when battery is in the range of 90-100%, AC plugged in and not charging yet. According to the tests when it's draining due the situation I've described if I push the tests to max the load, 60 FPS, and 1300 MHz so the case not draining(when it charges) it actually stop draining the battery and stays completely steady, not a single mW lost during this. This is a plus to my theory that with those parameters it's actually happening something.

    Hope this helps too.
    Last edited by Krejak; 09-07-2017 at 11:49 AM.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krejak View Post
    I could see another thing when battery is in the range of 90-100%, AC plugged in and not charging yet. According to the tests when it's draining due the situation I've described if I push the tests to max the load, 60 FPS, and 1300 MHz so the case not draining(when it charges) it actually stop draining the battery and stays completely steady, not a single mW lost during this. This is a plus to my theory that with those parameters it's actually happening something.

    Hope this helps too.
    Thanks for the info, I already passed the information you provided in replicating the discharging issue over to our NB team.

  4. #604
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    Just needed to clarify a few things.

    First, the issue is not with the battery circuit nor what the battery or connector is capable of.
    It's more of how "Hybrid Power", or what was once called "NOS" by MSI, was designed.
    I'm not sure which company was the first to use this system; it may have been MSI, but now almost everyone is doing it even though this is no longer necessary in higher end gaming laptops.

    Originally, when 180W PSU's first came out, the PSU's were simply not powerful enough for the laptops at the time, and many of these PSU's were substandard and known to die, even with the hybrid power system. But this system was designed to allow the AC and Battery to draw power together, so the system could use the full amount of power, even though the 180W PSU was woefully inadequate. It did work and some systems were able to draw 210W of power like this, but of course, at the cost of high battery drain.

    PSUs are now much more reliable than before, like the Delta 230W and 330W series, and there is even a 780W monster you can buy from Eurocomm. However many companies, like Razer, MSI, Dell (Alienware), Gigabyte, Asus, etc, are still using this hybrid power system on higher end hardware.

    The reason why Bios updates are not fixing the issue is because the Bios has no control over this.
    The Embedded Controller (EC) firmware is what controls hybrid power draw, as well as the absolute draw limits.

    Basically, the reason for hybrid power existing is the exact same reason why if you disconnect the battery, you get slower performance.

    Hybrid power 'starts' at a certain amount of power draw. On the 180W system, it could be at 120W, or 130W or 140W. This is where the battery starts being used. It starts off so slowly, it could be 1% drain in 1 hour. But goes up as more power is used by the system. There is an absolute power cap, however on systems with both TDP locked videocards (115W GTX 1070) and TDP locked CPU's (6700HQ, 7700HQ have 45W sustained power limits, and can only go up as high as 62W for a short amount of time, before power limit flags force them back to 45W; undervolting these processors can keep them under 45W at the highest loads), you will never reach the absolute cap, only just get high battery drain.

    When the battery is lower than 30% (this value can vary on manufacturer), hybrid power gets disabled, so the battery can charge. This means that the system will throttle if you exceed the cutoff where hybrid power would start getting used. This is the exact same reason why unplugging the battery causes the same performance as low battery.

    For newer systems (and not the light and thin notebooks, but true desktop replacements) with reiiable PSU's, there is no reason for this system to still exist. The 230W Delta PSU, for example, is capable of drawing 270W from the wall and 240W to the system (power efficiency levels means some power is lost in all PSU's), sustained, without blowing up on you, although you don't want to constantly overdraw the PSU; you're better off just buying a bigger one.

    This issue could be addressed by Asus in an EC firmware update, however there has been some huge sticking points with "unlocked' EC firmwares in the past, which may have been caused by a combination of flaky weak PSU's and substandard hardware. So now almost everything is locked down.

    Dell/Alienware I believe use a 'sense' middle pin to detect the amp rating for the PSU, thus allowing more power draw if the PSU is capable of it, so upgrading to a higher end PSU will work on some models. This is not a golden solution as there have been problems with those fragile pins breaking, causing serious issues.

    Unlocked EC firmwares with unlocked Bioses are usually available from OEM /ODM partners that are allowed to distribute "Prema" Bioses. But only a few resellers do, and never the main ODM or manufacturer themselves. The MSI 16L1 barebones and some of the Sager/Clevo units with Prema partners all have modifications to remove all traces of hybrid power battery drain and throttling; the systems will draw as much power as requested.

    Some manufacturers will offer different sized PSU's with different video card configurations (e.g. GTX 1060, GTX 1070=230W, GTX 1080=330W), but will use the exact same base mainboard and the exact same EC firmware and Bios across all models. MSI is known to do this on a few of their product ranges. However the good old hybrid battery drain system is still in use.

    Even more problems start occuring with the unlocked processors that are not limited to 45W TDP. The 6820HK and 7820HK CPU's are "K" series CPU's that failed QA for making it into desktop LGA bins, so they are put in BGA bins, which are lower quality (the ones which even failed these are labeled as HQ processors), and the TDP is reduced from 91W to 45W. Being unlocked, unlike the 7700HQ and 6700HQ, they respond similiarly to desktop processors, responding to Package Power Limit (PL1/PL2) increases and current limit (ICCMax). With these processors, if you get a good enough sample, you may be able to push 90-100W through them if you can keep it cool (below #Prochot), but then, with the hybrid power system and AC power caps in place, you may run into the absolute AC power limit, causing forced (PECI) throttling from the EC firmware.

    Most users won't run into this, except on some systems with extremely strict limits, but for those with TDP Modded video cards (a Pascal Bios Editor exists, but requires a SPI programmer) and overclocking unlocked processors, you can run into it.

    Ok so how does a system which use the exact same Bios and EC firmware and same mainboard, manage to cap power levels differently, and why can't just buying a 330W on a 230W system solve your problems (besides Dell brands?)

    Simple: Video card detection. EC firmware detects the videocard and then sets the max AC power limit, and the hybrid power cutoff points.

    On some MSI models, this can actually be accessed by a EC RAM flag in RW Everything, allowing you to 'remove' the hybrid and AC power, by spoofing the power profile (e.g. 230W into 330W, and 330W into 460W, by changing the hexadecimal ID). This would only work for systems that have configurations like this.

    Anyway, Asus could easily remove the hybrid power system from their 230W models with an EC update, assuming the 230W PSU were capable of handling 220-230W power. I could see how there could be issues with the 180W systems (mainly, reliabilllty of these PSU's; MSI models first carrying these PSU's had some of the PSU's die after awhile), but the companies seem very hesitant on removing the hybrid power system, and it isn't clear why.

  5. #605
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    That's indeed interesting but maybe you missed what I wrote. I already have the 230W adapter, and when pushing the laptop to full power it DOESN'T drain from battery but it charges it. I've misured the consumption at full power it was 200-210 W. The problem I've found is within certain circumstances where high FPS and correspondingly high GPU clock. That's not hybrid, that's something wrong, cause it's not needed in that system with 230w adapter. At full load it doesn't drain anything, as Asus NB team could see too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
    Just needed to clarify a few things.

    First, the issue is not with the battery circuit nor what the battery or connector is capable of.
    It's more of how "Hybrid Power", or what was once called "NOS" by MSI, was designed.
    I'm not sure which company was the first to use this system; it may have been MSI, but now almost everyone is doing it even though this is no longer necessary in higher end gaming laptops.

    Originally, when 180W PSU's first came out, the PSU's were simply not powerful enough for the laptops at the time, and many of these PSU's were substandard and known to die, even with the hybrid power system. But this system was designed to allow the AC and Battery to draw power together, so the system could use the full amount of power, even though the 180W PSU was woefully inadequate. It did work and some systems were able to draw 210W of power like this, but of course, at the cost of high battery drain.

    PSUs are now much more reliable than before, like the Delta 230W and 330W series, and there is even a 780W monster you can buy from Eurocomm. However many companies, like Razer, MSI, Dell (Alienware), Gigabyte, Asus, etc, are still using this hybrid power system on higher end hardware.

    The reason why Bios updates are not fixing the issue is because the Bios has no control over this.
    The Embedded Controller (EC) firmware is what controls hybrid power draw, as well as the absolute draw limits.

    Basically, the reason for hybrid power existing is the exact same reason why if you disconnect the battery, you get slower performance.

    Hybrid power 'starts' at a certain amount of power draw. On the 180W system, it could be at 120W, or 130W or 140W. This is where the battery starts being used. It starts off so slowly, it could be 1% drain in 1 hour. But goes up as more power is used by the system. There is an absolute power cap, however on systems with both TDP locked videocards (115W GTX 1070) and TDP locked CPU's (6700HQ, 7700HQ have 45W sustained power limits, and can only go up as high as 62W for a short amount of time, before power limit flags force them back to 45W; undervolting these processors can keep them under 45W at the highest loads), you will never reach the absolute cap, only just get high battery drain.

    When the battery is lower than 30% (this value can vary on manufacturer), hybrid power gets disabled, so the battery can charge. This means that the system will throttle if you exceed the cutoff where hybrid power would start getting used. This is the exact same reason why unplugging the battery causes the same performance as low battery.

    For newer systems (and not the light and thin notebooks, but true desktop replacements) with reiiable PSU's, there is no reason for this system to still exist. The 230W Delta PSU, for example, is capable of drawing 270W from the wall and 240W to the system (power efficiency levels means some power is lost in all PSU's), sustained, without blowing up on you, although you don't want to constantly overdraw the PSU; you're better off just buying a bigger one.

    This issue could be addressed by Asus in an EC firmware update, however there has been some huge sticking points with "unlocked' EC firmwares in the past, which may have been caused by a combination of flaky weak PSU's and substandard hardware. So now almost everything is locked down.

    Dell/Alienware I believe use a 'sense' middle pin to detect the amp rating for the PSU, thus allowing more power draw if the PSU is capable of it, so upgrading to a higher end PSU will work on some models. This is not a golden solution as there have been problems with those fragile pins breaking, causing serious issues.

    Unlocked EC firmwares with unlocked Bioses are usually available from OEM /ODM partners that are allowed to distribute "Prema" Bioses. But only a few resellers do, and never the main ODM or manufacturer themselves. The MSI 16L1 barebones and some of the Sager/Clevo units with Prema partners all have modifications to remove all traces of hybrid power battery drain and throttling; the systems will draw as much power as requested.

    Some manufacturers will offer different sized PSU's with different video card configurations (e.g. GTX 1060, GTX 1070=230W, GTX 1080=330W), but will use the exact same base mainboard and the exact same EC firmware and Bios across all models. MSI is known to do this on a few of their product ranges. However the good old hybrid battery drain system is still in use.

    Even more problems start occuring with the unlocked processors that are not limited to 45W TDP. The 6820HK and 7820HK CPU's are "K" series CPU's that failed QA for making it into desktop LGA bins, so they are put in BGA bins, which are lower quality (the ones which even failed these are labeled as HQ processors), and the TDP is reduced from 91W to 45W. Being unlocked, unlike the 7700HQ and 6700HQ, they respond similiarly to desktop processors, responding to Package Power Limit (PL1/PL2) increases and current limit (ICCMax). With these processors, if you get a good enough sample, you may be able to push 90-100W through them if you can keep it cool (below #Prochot), but then, with the hybrid power system and AC power caps in place, you may run into the absolute AC power limit, causing forced (PECI) throttling from the EC firmware.

    Most users won't run into this, except on some systems with extremely strict limits, but for those with TDP Modded video cards (a Pascal Bios Editor exists, but requires a SPI programmer) and overclocking unlocked processors, you can run into it.

    Ok so how does a system which use the exact same Bios and EC firmware and same mainboard, manage to cap power levels differently, and why can't just buying a 330W on a 230W system solve your problems (besides Dell brands?)

    Simple: Video card detection. EC firmware detects the videocard and then sets the max AC power limit, and the hybrid power cutoff points.

    On some MSI models, this can actually be accessed by a EC RAM flag in RW Everything, allowing you to 'remove' the hybrid and AC power, by spoofing the power profile (e.g. 230W into 330W, and 330W into 460W, by changing the hexadecimal ID). This would only work for systems that have configurations like this.

    Anyway, Asus could easily remove the hybrid power system from their 230W models with an EC update, assuming the 230W PSU were capable of handling 220-230W power. I could see how there could be issues with the 180W systems (mainly, reliabilllty of these PSU's; MSI models first carrying these PSU's had some of the PSU's die after awhile), but the companies seem very hesitant on removing the hybrid power system, and it isn't clear why.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krejak View Post
    That's indeed interesting but maybe you missed what I wrote. I already have the 230W adapter, and when pushing the laptop to full power it DOESN'T drain from battery but it charges it. I've misured the consumption at full power it was 200-210 W. The problem I've found is within certain circumstances where high FPS and correspondingly high GPU clock. That's not hybrid, that's something wrong, cause it's not needed in that system with 230w adapter. At full load it doesn't drain anything, as Asus NB team could see too.
    Krejak, my post wasn't directed at you, sorry. I was trying to explain what the reason was for the hybrid drain and why bios updates won't fix it. An EC update would completely fix it for all of the 230W systems, while the safety and reliability of the 180W PSU's is still uncertain. If the 180W PSU's were allowed to draw max power with no battery drain and they started overheating and some dying, that would just create another, longer rage thread, meaning the only fix for 180W systems is sending out 230W PSU's to everyone and then removing the hybrid battery system after. But once again I don't know the quality of the Asus 180W units. The MSI ones from that time were substandard.

  7. #607
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    Very informative
    Thank you for that. So the fix is an ec update? How does that work?


    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
    Just needed to clarify a few things.

    First, the issue is not with the battery circuit nor what the battery or connector is capable of.
    It's more of how "Hybrid Power", or what was once called "NOS" by MSI, was designed.
    I'm not sure which company was the first to use this system; it may have been MSI, but now almost everyone is doing it even though this is no longer necessary in higher end gaming laptops.

    Originally, when 180W PSU's first came out, the PSU's were simply not powerful enough for the laptops at the time, and many of these PSU's were substandard and known to die, even with the hybrid power system. But this system was designed to allow the AC and Battery to draw power together, so the system could use the full amount of power, even though the 180W PSU was woefully inadequate. It did work and some systems were able to draw 210W of power like this, but of course, at the cost of high battery drain.

    PSUs are now much more reliable than before, like the Delta 230W and 330W series, and there is even a 780W monster you can buy from Eurocomm. However many companies, like Razer, MSI, Dell (Alienware), Gigabyte, Asus, etc, are still using this hybrid power system on higher end hardware.

    The reason why Bios updates are not fixing the issue is because the Bios has no control over this.
    The Embedded Controller (EC) firmware is what controls hybrid power draw, as well as the absolute draw limits.

    Basically, the reason for hybrid power existing is the exact same reason why if you disconnect the battery, you get slower performance.

    Hybrid power 'starts' at a certain amount of power draw. On the 180W system, it could be at 120W, or 130W or 140W. This is where the battery starts being used. It starts off so slowly, it could be 1% drain in 1 hour. But goes up as more power is used by the system. There is an absolute power cap, however on systems with both TDP locked videocards (115W GTX 1070) and TDP locked CPU's (6700HQ, 7700HQ have 45W sustained power limits, and can only go up as high as 62W for a short amount of time, before power limit flags force them back to 45W; undervolting these processors can keep them under 45W at the highest loads), you will never reach the absolute cap, only just get high battery drain.

    When the battery is lower than 30% (this value can vary on manufacturer), hybrid power gets disabled, so the battery can charge. This means that the system will throttle if you exceed the cutoff where hybrid power would start getting used. This is the exact same reason why unplugging the battery causes the same performance as low battery.

    For newer systems (and not the light and thin notebooks, but true desktop replacements) with reiiable PSU's, there is no reason for this system to still exist. The 230W Delta PSU, for example, is capable of drawing 270W from the wall and 240W to the system (power efficiency levels means some power is lost in all PSU's), sustained, without blowing up on you, although you don't want to constantly overdraw the PSU; you're better off just buying a bigger one.

    This issue could be addressed by Asus in an EC firmware update, however there has been some huge sticking points with "unlocked' EC firmwares in the past, which may have been caused by a combination of flaky weak PSU's and substandard hardware. So now almost everything is locked down.

    Dell/Alienware I believe use a 'sense' middle pin to detect the amp rating for the PSU, thus allowing more power draw if the PSU is capable of it, so upgrading to a higher end PSU will work on some models. This is not a golden solution as there have been problems with those fragile pins breaking, causing serious issues.

    Unlocked EC firmwares with unlocked Bioses are usually available from OEM /ODM partners that are allowed to distribute "Prema" Bioses. But only a few resellers do, and never the main ODM or manufacturer themselves. The MSI 16L1 barebones and some of the Sager/Clevo units with Prema partners all have modifications to remove all traces of hybrid power battery drain and throttling; the systems will draw as much power as requested.

    Some manufacturers will offer different sized PSU's with different video card configurations (e.g. GTX 1060, GTX 1070=230W, GTX 1080=330W), but will use the exact same base mainboard and the exact same EC firmware and Bios across all models. MSI is known to do this on a few of their product ranges. However the good old hybrid battery drain system is still in use.

    Even more problems start occuring with the unlocked processors that are not limited to 45W TDP. The 6820HK and 7820HK CPU's are "K" series CPU's that failed QA for making it into desktop LGA bins, so they are put in BGA bins, which are lower quality (the ones which even failed these are labeled as HQ processors), and the TDP is reduced from 91W to 45W. Being unlocked, unlike the 7700HQ and 6700HQ, they respond similiarly to desktop processors, responding to Package Power Limit (PL1/PL2) increases and current limit (ICCMax). With these processors, if you get a good enough sample, you may be able to push 90-100W through them if you can keep it cool (below #Prochot), but then, with the hybrid power system and AC power caps in place, you may run into the absolute AC power limit, causing forced (PECI) throttling from the EC firmware.

    Most users won't run into this, except on some systems with extremely strict limits, but for those with TDP Modded video cards (a Pascal Bios Editor exists, but requires a SPI programmer) and overclocking unlocked processors, you can run into it.

    Ok so how does a system which use the exact same Bios and EC firmware and same mainboard, manage to cap power levels differently, and why can't just buying a 330W on a 230W system solve your problems (besides Dell brands?)

    Simple: Video card detection. EC firmware detects the videocard and then sets the max AC power limit, and the hybrid power cutoff points.

    On some MSI models, this can actually be accessed by a EC RAM flag in RW Everything, allowing you to 'remove' the hybrid and AC power, by spoofing the power profile (e.g. 230W into 330W, and 330W into 460W, by changing the hexadecimal ID). This would only work for systems that have configurations like this.

    Anyway, Asus could easily remove the hybrid power system from their 230W models with an EC update, assuming the 230W PSU were capable of handling 220-230W power. I could see how there could be issues with the 180W systems (mainly, reliabilllty of these PSU's; MSI models first carrying these PSU's had some of the PSU's die after awhile), but the companies seem very hesitant on removing the hybrid power system, and it isn't clear why.

  8. #608
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    Does Asus have an "EC firmware" or do they release EC firmwares that you flash separately from the main Bios?
    Everyone does it differently. Some companies bundle the EC firmware and the main Bios together. Some (like MSI) have it as separate files. Usually the EC firmware is on a small SPI flash chip (128k-256k'ish size), but on some laptops, it is stored on the main Bios chip. Perhaps Asus makes the EC firmware updated when you flash the main Bios. MSI used to do it like that.

    Either way, Asus knows full well about the problem. Their engineers designed it this way. The problem isn't CPU or video card throttling (because your systems come with TDP locked GTX 1070 (115W) and HQ processor (45W locked, 62W temporary burst), it's battery wear, slowly discharging and adding extra wear and stress to the battery. Only when the battery is lower than 30% (or unplugged) does more serious throttling happen. Systems with unlocked processors (HK processors or LGA "K" processors instead of HQ) have to deal with EC (PECI) throttling power limits that can ignore Bios PL1/PL2 overrides.

    They could "Fix" the problem for you guys if they really wanted to. But as I said before, they are probably worried about 180W PSU damage or reliability if they do, but that's just a guess. Either way however, assuming the 230W PSU's are made by Delta, there is absolutely no reason to have hybrid battery drain on a 230W Delta PSU.

  9. #609
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    Hi, I want to share my experience with Asus in Poland. Over three weeks ago I send my Gl502VS to Asus because of battery drain problem. They don't even contact me just replaced whole motherboard, battery and gave me new PSU (unfortunately 180W). So they replaced everything besides chassis and screen. but overall I think that they fixed the problem. I played Diablo 3 RoS over 2h starting with 95% of battery and it dropped to 90% and stopped. I played 30m more and battery was bouncing 90-91%. I also played New Tomb Rider (Max settings) and after hour battery dropped to 97% from 100%. On previous components 1h of Tomb and I had below 90%, same with Diablo 3 RoS. I don't know what was the issue but on papers from RMA was mentioned Battery error. Now I have same software, BIOS etc and difference is noticeable. Before RMA laptop in stress was consuming max 145W now it is 165W.

  10. #610
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    webb salamanca

    Oh no worries Falkentyne!

    I just wanted to highlight what I've discovered. So even in the 230W systems, with what you're saying at fixed wattage consumption it starts by default to drain from battery even if the has more power left there?

    That should be easy to be fixed then if is correct I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post
    Krejak, my post wasn't directed at you, sorry. I was trying to explain what the reason was for the hybrid drain and why bios updates won't fix it. An EC update would completely fix it for all of the 230W systems, while the safety and reliability of the 180W PSU's is still uncertain. If the 180W PSU's were allowed to draw max power with no battery drain and they started overheating and some dying, that would just create another, longer rage thread, meaning the only fix for 180W systems is sending out 230W PSU's to everyone and then removing the hybrid battery system after. But once again I don't know the quality of the Asus 180W units. The MSI ones from that time were substandard.

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