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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moloch View Post
    I understand your concerns, but it was advertised as "like new", so if it is a poor delid job, or otherwise damaged, then it is not "like new" condition... i.e. not as advertised. "like new" has specific legal connotations that imply perfect working condition... pretty much the opposite of "as is" or "for parts
    Please read my longer reply to your post on the Extreme thread where you posted the Amazon link to the BuyVPC listing:

    https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...l=1#post669407

    "Specific legal connotations that imply perfect working condition" is a gigantic gray area, and it means absolutely nothing to a seller who is purposely deceptive or unethical. As I mentioned on my reply to you on this Apex thread, BuyVPC has had 1-star ratings from customers who complained that BuyVPC sold them products that were "not as advertised" in many ways, including selling used products that they advertised as "New". "New" has an even more precise definition than "Like New", but unethical sellers try to sell used items as "New" all the time. In my Extreme-thread reply, I described two instances where I was scammed by Amazon third-party sellers selling used items as "New". In case you were not aware, this kind of duplicity and false advertising happens all the time with shady sellers, especially if you did not buy directly from Amazon, Newegg, or a reputable company as the seller.

    Regarding using a credit card for purchases, here is a tip... whenever I buy from a questionable seller or buy from a foreign company's Web site, even from a reputable foreign company like EKWB or CableMod, I always prefer to use PayPal instead of a bank credit card. When buying from third-party sellers on Amazon or Newegg, you can use your credit card because Amazon and Newegg have much tighter security controls than the small companies. But one huge advantage of PayPal is that they have a dedicated customer dispute resolution department that can credit back to your PayPal payment method (e.g. your credit card or bank account) much faster than most banks. If you lost your credit card, banks will quickly react to deactivate your credit card. But for disputes with a seller, the banks often take much longer to pursue the issue than PayPal's dispute resolution staff, and you may still have to pay the disputed charge on your credit card statement first before the bank credits it back later. Just sayin...

    You mentioned: "I've spent many thousands at amazon, and never had to dispute anything before, so I assume they would just hand me back my money if I complained". But you did not buy the CPU directly from Amazon. You bought it from a third-party seller, BuyVPC, who has already stated that all sales of used items are final and non-returnable. Amazon explicitly states that they do not manage returns when you buy from a third-party seller:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custo...deId=201077750

    Anyway, I hope that you got a great deal on that CPU and there is nothing wrong with it. Just be smart about where you buy from, because there are many unscrupulous small retailers out there, and some of the third-party sellers on Amazon and Newegg consist of just one or two persons running a business. And like the price-gouging BuyVPC and like concert ticket scalpers who sometimes even sell fake concert tickets, they can tiptoe along the fine line that separates "very unethical" and "illegal".
    Last edited by DragonPurr; 08-23-2017 at 03:56 AM.

  2. #122
    ROG Guru: White Belt Array Moloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPurr View Post
    Please read my longer reply to your post on the Extreme thread where you posted the Amazon link to the BuyVPC listing:

    https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...l=1#post669407
    I've read your posts and understand your concerns. I typically use paypal and/or credit card for dispute reasons. Amazon/eBay are also good with disputes.

    As for their price gouging, that's just capitalism in action. Both Amazon and Newegg raised the price of their 7900x by $70. It's simply supply and demand. If Amazon or Newegg had stock, buyVPC couldn't charge those prices

    Provantage seems fine with taking theirs back. They even said they would pay shipping and waive restocking fee, etc. I was more annoyed with the lack of customer support... their website claimed I would receive periodic updates, but the only updates I received was when I emailed them, and I received incorrect information. Even by phone I received incorrect information, and they failed to cancel my order after telling me it was cancelled. (I've never had that happen anywhere before)

    The $400 pig-in-a-poke CPU is mildly worrisome, but I'm just going to assume the best until I open the package. They did have 25k reviews, so they aren't exactly new. I have seen some crazy stories including broken/bent pins, or opening a box to find a completely different processor inside. But, it could also simply be a return that they charged a 20%+ restocking fee, and they seem to understand supply and demand of an open-box CPU which only released a month ago wont sell fast at only 20% discount (and you don't want a lot of used cpu's sitting around losing value)

    They should both be here by Thursday, unfortunately I don't have a motherboard to test them... If I end up returning the NiB CPU to Provantage, and this 'like new' CPU is bunk, I'm gonna be mildly peeved. You might hear about me on the news
    Last edited by Moloch; 08-23-2017 at 04:23 AM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moloch View Post
    I've read your posts and understand your concerns. I typically use paypal and/or credit card for dispute reasons. Amazon/eBay are also good with disputes.

    As for their price gouging, that's just capitalism in action. Both Amazon and Newegg raised the price of their 7900x by $70. It's simply supply and demand. If Amazon or Newegg had stock, buyVPC couldn't charge those prices

    Provantage seems fine with taking theirs back. They even said they would pay shipping and waive restocking fee, etc. I was more annoyed with the lack of customer support... their website claimed I would receive periodic updates, but the only updates I received was when I emailed them, and I received incorrect information. Even by phone I received incorrect information, and they failed to cancel my order after telling me it was cancelled. (I've never had that happen anywhere before)

    The $400 pig-in-a-poke CPU is mildly worrisome, but I'm just going to assume the best until I open the package. They did have 25k reviews, so they aren't exactly new. I have seen some crazy stories including broken/bent pins, or opening a box to find a completely different processor inside. But, it could also simply be a return that they charged a 20%+ restocking fee, and they seem to understand supply and demand of an open-box CPU which only released a month ago wont sell fast at only 20% discount (and you don't want a lot of used cpu's sitting around losing value)

    They should both be here by Thursday, unfortunately I don't have a motherboard to test them... If I end up returning the NiB CPU to Provantage, and this 'like new' CPU is bunk, I'm gonna be mildly peeved. You might hear about me on the news
    Sure, raising the price 5%, 10%, or even 30% above MSRP for popular items is just supply-and-demand capitalism. But as for me personally, I become wary of sellers like BuyVPC when they often gouge by selling at 100% (double) or 200% (triple) markup above MSRP. Martin Shkreli's pharmaceutical company Turing previously acquired a lifesaving-drug called Daraprim and then increased its price by over 5000%. Would you also call that "just capitalism in action"? Extreme outrageous price-gouging is not illegal, but it is unethical, regardless of whether you are talking about a CPU, concert tickets, or pharmaceutical drugs.

    Of course Provantage will take their CPU back without restocking fees because it is a new CPU and you have not opened the CPU box yet. I have also done this a number of times with Newegg, Amazon, B&H, and others, after changing my mind about a purchase after it was shipped, either by simply refusing the UPS/FedEx/OnTrac delivery, by having the retailer initiate the recall with the delivery company, or by requesting a pre-paid RMA shipping label. It was just my personal opinion that, for something expensive like a CPU that I hope to use for a long time, buying a used CPU from a flagrant price-gouger who has received various complaints about deceptive selling practices and has an "all sales of used items are final" non-returnable clause would make me think that it was not worth the $200 savings. I noticed that BuyVPC's remaining $400 used 7820X is still listed on Amazon and no one has bought it yet.

    The "opening a box to find a completely different processor inside" was due to several cases of RMA fraud that hit Amazon a few months ago with their Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 7 CPUs. That was a buyer scam, not a seller scam, where the scammer bought the CPU, carefully opened the box to remove the CPU and replace it with another far-cheaper CPU, carefully resealed the box, lied to Amazon that they did not want the CPU and had not used it yet, sent the CPU back to Amazon, Amazon's RMA department did not inspect the CPU box closely enough and was fooled by the scam and issued a full refund to the buyer, and Amazon sold that same CPU box with the swapped CPU to another buyer.

    But like I said, the best-case scenario is that you got a great deal on a $400 7820X. The worst-case scenario is that there is something wrong with the CPU and I hear your scream next month from all the way up here in mountains where I am. Good luck!
    Last edited by DragonPurr; 08-23-2017 at 08:25 AM.

  4. #124
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    So simple question, may not be a simple answer. Hypothetically the Apex is designed for more 'extreme' overclocking, with the LN and such. I know it has a 8pin/8pin for the motherboard but I highly doubt my overclocking on water will come no where close to the need of that much power.

    So between the APEX VI and the RAMPAGE VI, do you think there will be much (if any) difference in overclocking? I mean if I have a chip and put it on both, I'm not going to get 4.5Ghz on one and 5Ghz on the other? I can't imagine it being that big of a difference. Raja said that the Rampage VI cools the VRM much better than the Apex VI, but after investigating all the 'supposed VRM overheating issues' I don't believe the VRM will be the bottleneck in overclocking as I know I won't be pushing 400w through it.

    So anyone have any thoughts as to will there be a 'noticeable' difference between OC with the two different boards but the same CPU? The Rampage VI is more expensive and just so much sexier!!! If it is a 100Mhz difference no biggie but 500 or so?? Different story.
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  5. #125
    Administrator Array Silent Scone@ASUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    So simple question, may not be a simple answer. Hypothetically the Apex is designed for more 'extreme' overclocking, with the LN and such. I know it has a 8pin/8pin for the motherboard but I highly doubt my overclocking on water will come no where close to the need of that much power.

    So between the APEX VI and the RAMPAGE VI, do you think there will be much (if any) difference in overclocking? I mean if I have a chip and put it on both, I'm not going to get 4.5Ghz on one and 5Ghz on the other? I can't imagine it being that big of a difference. Raja said that the Rampage VI cools the VRM much better than the Apex VI, but after investigating all the 'supposed VRM overheating issues' I don't believe the VRM will be the bottleneck in overclocking as I know I won't be pushing 400w through it.

    So anyone have any thoughts as to will there be a 'noticeable' difference between OC with the two different boards but the same CPU? The Rampage VI is more expensive and just so much sexier!!! If it is a 100Mhz difference no biggie but 500 or so?? Different story.

    You've ultimately answered your own question. The VRM cooling is a non-issue if not pushing heavy AVX loads in tandem with overclocking. As far as overclocking goes, any difference between the two will be at the very top end given the DRAM topology possibly favouring the Apex, but it will be minimal. Outside of extreme benching, both are limited by CPU thermals and capable of the same things.

  6. #126
    ROG Guru: White Belt Array Moloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    So simple question, may not be a simple answer. Hypothetically the Apex is designed for more 'extreme' overclocking, with the LN and such. I know it has a 8pin/8pin for the motherboard but I highly doubt my overclocking on water will come no where close to the need of that much power.

    So between the APEX VI and the RAMPAGE VI, do you think there will be much (if any) difference in overclocking? I mean if I have a chip and put it on both, I'm not going to get 4.5Ghz on one and 5Ghz on the other? I can't imagine it being that big of a difference. Raja said that the Rampage VI cools the VRM much better than the Apex VI, but after investigating all the 'supposed VRM overheating issues' I don't believe the VRM will be the bottleneck in overclocking as I know I won't be pushing 400w through it.

    So anyone have any thoughts as to will there be a 'noticeable' difference between OC with the two different boards but the same CPU? The Rampage VI is more expensive and just so much sexier!!! If it is a 100Mhz difference no biggie but 500 or so?? Different story.
    We really don't know how much difference there would be unless someone tests both mobos with the same CPU/RAM/etc

    I'm guessing the RAM increase is around 100Mhz from shorter pathways. The only other thing I know of is the Apex uses fewer switches... like with the VROC DIMM.2 being half-disabled with a 28-core CPU... that's done to speed things up (a tiny bit)... no idea how much those "tiny bits" add up... prolly not a lot

    Total guess here, but I'd say the Apex likely overclocks ~1% faster on CPU/chipset stuff, and maybe 3-4% faster on RAM?... Almost certainly less than 500Mhz, that would be a HUGE difference

  7. #127
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    ASUS ROG RAMPAGE VI APEX NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE ON NEWEGG

    This appeared during the past 2-3 minutes (around 10:21AM PST).

    https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-015-_-Product

    I run Python scripts that monitor various sites for products and prices and they scan all sites every few minutes, and the scripts email me, text me, and pop up a new browser tab product Web page when an alert triggers. Although the Extreme may also show up this week, I think it may not show up until next week.

    The Apex is not yet available on Amazon and most other U.S. sites. (sorry, I don't monitor Canada and Europe sites)
    Last edited by DragonPurr; 08-24-2017 at 05:53 PM.

  8. #128
    ROG Guru: White Belt Array Moloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPurr View Post
    ASUS ROG RAMPAGE VI APEX NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE ON NEWEGG

    This appeared during the past 2-3 minutes (around 10:21AM PST).

    https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-015-_-Product

    I run Python scripts that monitor various sites for products and prices and they scan all sites every few minutes, and the scripts email me, text me, and pop up a new browser tab product Web page when an alert triggers. Although the Extreme may also show up this week, I think it may not show up until next week.

    The Apex is not yet available on Amazon and most other U.S. sites. (sorry, I don't monitor Canada and Europe sites)
    Thanks, now I can test out my pig-in-a-poke 7820x (which arrived looking fine on the outside)
    Last edited by Moloch; 08-25-2017 at 03:41 AM.

  9. #129
    Tech Marketing Manager HQ Array Raja@ASUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moloch View Post
    We really don't know how much difference there would be unless someone tests both mobos with the same CPU/RAM/etc

    I'm guessing the RAM increase is around 100Mhz from shorter pathways. The only other thing I know of is the Apex uses fewer switches... like with the VROC DIMM.2 being half-disabled with a 28-core CPU... that's done to speed things up (a tiny bit)... no idea how much those "tiny bits" add up... prolly not a lot

    Total guess here, but I'd say the Apex likely overclocks ~1% faster on CPU/chipset stuff, and maybe 3-4% faster on RAM?... Almost certainly less than 500Mhz, that would be a HUGE difference

    CPU overclocking will be identical, assuming the user has enough nous to match up both boards properly (most don't). Not sure what makes people think otherwise.

    Memory overclocking: the Apex win from a latency perspective. The platform's IMC can't go much past DDR4-4200 or so.

  10. #130
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array Brighttail PC Specs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raja@ASUS View Post
    CPU overclocking will be identical, assuming the user has enough nous to match up both boards properly (most don't). Not sure what makes people think otherwise.

    Memory overclocking: the Apex win from a latency perspective. The platform's IMC can't go much past DDR4-4200 or so.
    "nous" as in knowledge or is this an acronym for something I'm not familiar with?
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