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  1. #91
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array Brighttail PC Specs
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    RAID can be very confusing and I don't pretend to know everything about it. You are right if you have an Intel SSD you can use RAID 0 without a dongle. I stated this a few pages back in my explanation. Here is the URL for that explanation: https://ark.intel.com/products/128252 I do not know what qualifies as an "Intel enterprise SSD" tho.

    Best I can say if you have questions go to the FAQ about VROC: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us...d-storage.html

    The main thing to understand is that most of what is listed there is designed FOR the XEON processors NOT the I9s.
    Second I'm not sure what you mean that "you can't boot using the 2 DIMM.2". If you mean using VROC, you are correct. If you mean in RAID 0 that is incorrect. You can create a bootable RAID 0 if you switch the DIMM.2 to PCH rather than CPU. It will create a RAID 0 array just fine, but like the z170/z270 platforms it will have a bandwidth cap of 3.5 to 4.0 Gb/s which means if you are using your Pros, it is pretty much useless for READS but you can get up to 3000+Mb/s on the writes. For me it isn't worth it.

    Finally I wouldn't bother with the PM961. If you go Samsung go for the Pro of the EVO 960 models. If using VROC and having it bootable is that important to you, get Intel drives.

    Good luck and I might suggest you go back and read the entire thread again.
    Panteks Enthoo Elite / Asus x299 Rampage VI Extreme / Intel I9-7900X / Corsair Dominator Platinum SE 4x8 3200MHz
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  2. #92
    ROG Guru: Yellow Belt Array CharlieH PC Specs
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    Laptop (Model)MSI GT75 TITAN-094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    RAID 0 is great when reading large files. That is why you see sequential reads of 3.5 GB/s but when dealing with 4k file sizes that can drop to 50-100Mb/s. The further in QUEUE depth the better the speeds will be and the true power of RAID 0 is realized. The more disks you add the more depth you need to realize a benefit in Random reads. Writes are a different story as the result is that multiple RAID0 members can be at work at the same time since they keep their own queue of writes to do. This is not possible with random read as this request can only be finished after supplying the requested data; thus no shortcuts possible here. Basically if you are doing large file read/writes you will see a big difference using RAID 0. If you are using it to play games or do normal work where the access is for smaller files, then you may see a decrease actually.

    Concerning the Dongle, I'm not sure normal RAID dongles will work. They may but I'm not sure how motherboard manufacturers have coded their BIOS on accepting any old RAID dongle or specific VROCStandard/Premium dongles. In truth, VROC was never made for the X299 motherboards. It was created for their Enterprise Xeon platform. To use VROC you need a processor capable of VMD (Volume management device) which enables the processor to group up to 16 lanes of storage (Aka the Asus Hyper x16). The I9s have this capability. Intel tho has validated on the Xeon platform some third party OEM M.2s like the SM96t1/PM961/SM951 ect to work with VROC, but have decided (in their infinite wisdom) to NOT allow this on the x299 platform.

    Basically I think the best we can hope for is that with a dongle of some sort we can get the true scaling of VROC for a non-bootable, non-intel drive.
    Thanks for the info on latency and the writes is really what my Dev VMs do a ton of is why I think the RAID 0 helps. I am just trying to learn out here.

    I concur I just hope I can do Samsung 960 Pros VROC RAID 0 on the Hyper M.2 x16 cards with the key.

    Normally I can just drop 6-10K at once get my hardware and build my new rig so I have this stuff except GPUs occasionally. Not use to the MBs, CPUs, and memory being hard to get it just wasn't this way with the x99 platform or the SkyLake stuff.

    Anyway it looks like I'll be just using a 2TB Samsung 960 Pro in a DIMM.2 slot for my boot drive since it is supposed to be faster than the MB M.2 slot. And get the 2x Hyper M.2 x16 Cards and try the key to see if the Samsung 960 Pros work, if not I'll be stuck with the Intel or scrapping the rig altogether and sticking with what I have until the next Gen or 2.

    My Dev VMs like you video stuff I am sure just chew thru hardware is why I upgrade every cycle/chance I get. This VROC stuff is as exciting as when PCIe/NVMe came out to me even hough it been around a while.
    Last edited by CharlieH; 10-28-2017 at 03:29 AM.

  3. #93
    ROG Guru: Yellow Belt Array CharlieH PC Specs
    CharlieH PC Specs
    Laptop (Model)MSI GT75 TITAN-094
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    Storage #12x 1TB Samsung 970 PRO PCIe NVMe SSD VROC Raid 0
    Storage #22x Intel Optane SSD 900P VROC Raid 0
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    CaseHighSpeed PC Top Desk Tech Station - HPTX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    RAID can be very confusing and I don't pretend to know everything about it. You are right if you have an Intel SSD you can use RAID 0 without a dongle. I stated this a few pages back in my explanation. Here is the URL for that explanation: https://ark.intel.com/products/128252 I do not know what qualifies as an "Intel enterprise SSD" tho.

    Best I can say if you have questions go to the FAQ about VROC: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us...d-storage.html

    The main thing to understand is that most of what is listed there is designed FOR the XEON processors NOT the I9s.
    Second I'm not sure what you mean that "you can't boot using the 2 DIMM.2". If you mean using VROC, you are correct. If you mean in RAID 0 that is incorrect. You can create a bootable RAID 0 if you switch the DIMM.2 to PCH rather than CPU. It will create a RAID 0 array just fine, but like the z170/z270 platforms it will have a bandwidth cap of 3.5 to 4.0 Gb/s which means if you are using your Pros, it is pretty much useless for READS but you can get up to 3000+Mb/s on the writes. For me it isn't worth it.

    Finally I wouldn't bother with the PM961. If you go Samsung go for the Pro of the EVO 960 models. If using VROC and having it bootable is that important to you, get Intel drives.

    Good luck and I might suggest you go back and read the entire thread again.
    Yeah I meant VROC booting from the DIMM.2.

    The guy I found booting from the MB M.2 and 1 DIMM.2 must have not been using VROC. I didn't realize the MB M.2 is PCH only I thought he mentioned that being one of the DIMM.2 slots I must have misunderstood.

    Yeah my Z170 MBs I use it for the writes so I have the 2x PCIe/NVMe Samsung 960 Pros RAID 0 and its great.

    I am stuck on the quality, reliability, warranty and speed of the Samsung 960 Pros I won't use anything else is why I am out here trying to learn before I waste my time and/or buy. But I am willing to try it since I can't get solid info up to date.

  4. #94
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array Brighttail PC Specs
    Brighttail PC Specs
    Laptop (Model)Asus G751JT
    MotherboardAsus x299 Rampage VI Extreme
    ProcessorIntel i9-7900x
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    Graphics Card #1MSI GTX 1080TI
    MonitorAcer XB321HK (4k,IPS,G-sync)
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieH View Post
    Thanks for the info on latency and the writes is really what my Dev VMs do a ton of is why I think the RAID 0 helps. I am just trying to learn out here.

    I concur I just hope I can do Samsung 960 Pros VROC RAID 0 on the Hyper M.2 x16 cards with the key.

    Normally I can just drop 6-10K at once get my hardware and build my new rig so I have this stuff except GPUs occasionally. Not use to the MBs, CPUs, and memory being hard to get it just wasn't this way with the x99 platform or the SkyLake stuff.

    Anyway it looks like I'll be just using a 2TB Samsung 960 Pro in a DIMM.2 slot for my boot drive since it is supposed to be faster than the MB M.2 slot. And get the 2x Hyper M.2 x16 Cards and try the key to see if the Samsung 960 Pros work, if not I'll be stuck with the Intel or scrapping the rig altogether and sticking with what I have until the next Gen or 2.

    My Dev VMs like you video stuff I am sure just chew thru hardware is why I upgrade every cycle/chance I get. This VROC stuff is as exciting as when PCIe/NVMe came out to me even hough it been around a while.
    This is where people get confused. You say using the Pro in a Dimm.2 slot vs the m.2 slot is supposed to be faster? I haven't seen any evidence of it and my own testing didn't show any noticeable difference between those two slots or a PCI-e lane. The simple fact is they are all going through the CPU lanes. If you have evidence otherwise I'd appreciate you posting a link. I'm not aware that the m.2 is PCH only. I could be wrong but when i did my tests the speeds were identical to the PCI-e lanes.

    Frankly if you can drop that much money I'd just buy a XEON platform/mb/RAM, especially if you are needing the RAID. The x299 platform like the x99 is just a consumer version of their Enterprise platform. The only difference at this point is that unlike the x99 platform where you could use some Xeon processors, i haven't seen any that will fit in the new 2066 slot. That may change tho.

    I get the 'wanting the best/newest/greatest". I got the Phanteks Elite case after all, but I wouldn't get to hung up on VROC. In all honesty there is very little new with the x299 platform that makes it 'so much' better than the x99 platform. Sure you can get more cores but you are paying inflated prices especially when you take Threadripper into account. I upgraded for two reasons. First I didn't have a 6 core or better computer for my official work computer and I found myself doing a lot of 'work' on my personal rig. Now I can just switch my personal rig to my work rig. Second, this x299 platform is supposed to be solid for at least 3 years. I'm good with that timeline.
    Panteks Enthoo Elite / Asus x299 Rampage VI Extreme / Intel I9-7900X / Corsair Dominator Platinum SE 4x8 3200MHz
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  5. #95
    ROG Guru: Yellow Belt Array CharlieH PC Specs
    CharlieH PC Specs
    Laptop (Model)MSI GT75 TITAN-094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    This is where people get confused. You say using the Pro in a Dimm.2 slot vs the m.2 slot is supposed to be faster? I haven't seen any evidence of it and my own testing didn't show any noticeable difference between those two slots or a PCI-e lane. The simple fact is they are all going through the CPU lanes. If you have evidence otherwise I'd appreciate you posting a link. I'm not aware that the m.2 is PCH only. I could be wrong but when i did my tests the speeds were identical to the PCI-e lanes.

    Frankly if you can drop that much money I'd just buy a XEON platform/mb/RAM, especially if you are needing the RAID. The x299 platform like the x99 is just a consumer version of their Enterprise platform. The only difference at this point is that unlike the x99 platform where you could use some Xeon processors, i haven't seen any that will fit in the new 2066 slot. That may change tho.

    I get the 'wanting the best/newest/greatest". I got the Phanteks Elite case after all, but I wouldn't get to hung up on VROC. In all honesty there is very little new with the x299 platform that makes it 'so much' better than the x99 platform. Sure you can get more cores but you are paying inflated prices especially when you take Threadripper into account. I upgraded for two reasons. First I didn't have a 6 core or better computer for my official work computer and I found myself doing a lot of 'work' on my personal rig. Now I can just switch my personal rig to my work rig. Second, this x299 platform is supposed to be solid for at least 3 years. I'm good with that timeline.
    Justin said it in a post right above yours, that the MB M.2 slot is PCH only. Also in this same thread someone mentioned ASUS said the DIMM.2 was faster than the MB M.2. The manual talks about VROC with x4 and x16 PCIe cards which the DIMM.2 card seem to fall into. But I really don't care at this point I'll get the hardware and test it myself with the key so I am done with discussing that respectfully .

    I have Xeons too but the clock speed is too slow and I can't OC them so I quit buying them. I am typing on a ThinkPad with a mobile Xeon with 2x PCI/NVMe RAID 0 setup as we speak. I run VMs on my laptop when I travel too so I need this.

    I don't want the latest/greatest to just want it. I spend pretty much every waking hour on my hardware doing software development although I do enjoy building hardware too. My Dev VMs are loaded with software and can chew up 6 threads 100% while doing builds with unit/int tests etc. They do a ton of I/O and I even do nested Hyper-V running Android emulators, cloud setups etc. My clients have different environments and since I work from home most the time I stand their envs up and need multiple VMs for different clients etc. So I really need/use this kind of hardware to make money is why I do it. I don't game at all pretty much or do any benching anymore. Any drive performance increase makes a real difference to me. Other folks I work with run the same builds/tests I do and their times are 30+ minutes and mine are 6-7 minutes. Another example I stood up a 120GB customer database in 1-1.5 minutes it took this other dude 10+ minutes. I just can't handle 30+ minutes it slows me down too much and disrupts my work. And the more cores the better I can never have enough until the Intel 7980XE finally.

    I don't know why but I just can't make the jump to AMD. Maybe I am brainwashed.
    Last edited by CharlieH; 10-28-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  6. #96
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    How can you guys got the raid 0 working?
    I have 1 ssd on dimm.2 and the otjer on m2 port and intel rapid storage only shows one drive and says Non-raid physical disk

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #97
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array Brighttail PC Specs
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    Quote Originally Posted by fexnok View Post
    How can you guys got the raid 0 working?
    I have 1 ssd on dimm.2 and the otjer on m2 port and intel rapid storage only shows one drive and says Non-raid physical disk

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you are trying to make a bootable RAID on an x299, using the Samsung 960 Pros you aren't going to be able to do it, unless you have the DIMM.2 set to PCH. I'm not sure if the m.2 slot can be set to that, so you may have to use both DIMM.2 slots and create the bootable RAID on the PCH lanes. Of course to let you know it is pretty useless to do RAID on PCH using Samsung Pros as you will be limited by the bandwidth of 3.5 to 4.0 GB/s.
    Panteks Enthoo Elite / Asus x299 Rampage VI Extreme / Intel I9-7900X / Corsair Dominator Platinum SE 4x8 3200MHz
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brighttail View Post
    If you are trying to make a bootable RAID on an x299, using the Samsung 960 Pros you aren't going to be able to do it, unless you have the DIMM.2 set to PCH. I'm not sure if the m.2 slot can be set to that, so you may have to use both DIMM.2 slots and create the bootable RAID on the PCH lanes. Of course to let you know it is pretty useless to do RAID on PCH using Samsung Pros as you will be limited by the bandwidth of 3.5 to 4.0 GB/s.

    Thanks for your answer. I've read many posts where some say performance is better when both ssd's are on DIMM.2 and others say just one on DIMM.2 and one on MB's M.2 slot. Asus says DIMM.2 shouldn't have bootleneck.

    What's is best?

  9. #99
    Major Asshattery Array Protocol PC Specs
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinThyme View Post
    Please read that manual carefully again. Nowhere does it say and DIMM2 is PCH only. What is says it M2_2 on the dimm is the only one of the 2 that can be configured to run an M2 SATA or optane stick if PCH configuration of the DIMM is set to PCH instead of CPU in the BIOS and that if it is set to PCH in the BIOS PCIeX4 will be disabled.
    The 900P is not U2, its PCIe 4.0 and backwards compatible to 3.0 and is HUGE and takes up an entire PCIe slot for less than 500MB.
    If DIMM.2_1 is populated and in CPU mode it will disable U2 but U2 isnt part of the equation unless you are planning on going for even slower Intel 750 that was a weak attempt to replace SATA. Those drives are 2.5 inch drives just like the Samsung 85o series and connect to the U2 ports instead of SATA.

    Attachment 68430


    Attachment 68432


    Attachment 68431


    At this point we have tested and proven that you can raid0 two M2 drives in the DIMM2.0 with CPU config selected. We have also verified you cant boot from them.

    What we are expecting is no less than being able to do what the manual says in section 4. It would be nice if we can do better but Im expecting whats advertied in the least. At this point Intel has announced the VROC keys will not be available for sale and only as a Bundle which contradicts whats in the manual that states they can be purchased separately. There is no clear cut PN for the limited places you can buy a key. What they have listed only covers like 1000 different keys for different platforms, none of them specify X299 and some of them are for older SATA arrays. Ive read some of the reviews that show a 1673 number but try searching that and see what you come up with.

    At this point its time for ASUS to step up and make these keys available to those who have purchased the X299 and hyper x16 to fulfill their obligation of specifications.

    Hey Justin. This whole thread got a little crazy and slightly contradicting so I just wanted to double-check something here (I can't even find a R6E to buy, so I can't experiment myself).

    Firstly, I don't care about booting a VROC array. I'll simply run a standalone 960 Pro in the PCH M.2 slot for a boot drive. To state it simply, I want to use VROC/RAID-0 for a data volume (non-bootable) with Samsung 960 PRO's (2 of them).

    Can this be accomplished only using DIMM.2 slots (both of them obviously), or is one still utterly screwed even for RAID-0 on a non-bootable config? I've read that possibly this array can't be created in the BIOS, but must be created after Windows is installed via the Intel RST application?

    Thanks for any insight here before I start throwing cash down everywhere. Trying to stay away from a 900P if I can given the SLi setup that I am thinking about.
    Last edited by Protocol; 10-30-2017 at 06:17 PM.
    | Corsair 900D | i9-7940X @ 4.5 GHz 24/7 (All-Core) | Rampage VI Extreme |
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    | EVGA GTX 1080 Ti FTW3 with EK blocks - 2x-SLi | Corsair AXi1200 PSU |
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  10. #100
    ROG Guru: Brown Belt Array Brighttail PC Specs
    Brighttail PC Specs
    Laptop (Model)Asus G751JT
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    ProcessorIntel i9-7900x
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protocol View Post
    Hey Justin. This whole thread got a little crazy and slightly contradicting so I just wanted to double-check something here (I can't even find a R6E to buy, so I can't experiment myself).

    Firstly, I don't care about booting a VROC array. I'll simply run a standalone 960 Pro in the PCH M.2 slot for a boot drive. To state it simply, I want to use VROC/RAID-0 for a data volume (non-bootable) with Samsung 960 PRO's (2 of them).

    Can this be accomplished only using DIMM.2 slots (both of them obviously), or is one still utterly screwed even for RAID-0 on a non-bootable config? I've read that possibly this array can't be created in the BIOS, but must be created after Windows is installed via the Intel RST application?

    Thanks for any insight here before I start throwing cash down everywhere. Trying to stay away from a 900P if I can given the SLi setup that I am thinking about.
    This is something that we are still looking in to. I can say that VROC will not be useable using the DIMM.2 as there is no setting in BIOS to set it to handle VROC, only the PCI-e slots have that capability.

    We have seen non-intel drives able to use VROC by using an Asus Hyper x16. It worked, but the author of the article that managed this pointed out that the RST software ended up being a trial software, meaning after 90 days it would lock the drive.

    The solution seems to be get the Intel dongle to get around the trial period, but we haven't found a person who has both the Asus Hyper and the Dongle. Many are still waiting to receive one or the other. Further the article indicated that VROC may require that all M.2s have to be on the same card, but we once again haven't been able to test whether it has to be on one card or can it be spanned over multiple PCI-e slots.

    The biggest problem is that when I put a Samsung 960pro and Sm961 in the PCI-e slot on a single x4 card, I could choose VROC in the BIOS but after that, Windows wouldn't look or recognize the drive until I turned off VROC.

    So as you can see we are still waiting on some answers.
    Panteks Enthoo Elite / Asus x299 Rampage VI Extreme / Intel I9-7900X / Corsair Dominator Platinum SE 4x8 3200MHz
    MSI GTX 1080 TI / 2x Intel 900p in a bootable VROC RAID 0 / Samsung 960 Pro 512GB
    Samsung 850 PRO 512GB / Western Digital Gold 8TB HD
    Corsair AX 1200i / Corsair Platinum K95 / Asus Spatha
    Acer XB321HK 4k, IPS, G-sync Monitor / Water Cooled / Asus G571JT Laptop

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